H.I. No. 18: Monkey Copyright

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"Monkey Copyright"
Hello Internet episode
Episode no.18
Presented by
Original release dateAugust 12, 2014 (2014-08-12)
Running time1:55:21
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"H.I. #18: Monkey Copyright" is the 18th episode of Hello Internet, released on August 12, 2014.[1]

Official Description[edit | edit source]

Follow-up extravaganza: Grey & Brady discuss discussions, Morocco, how wonderful children are, checklists, toothbrushes, what a humblebrag really is, US state flag redesigns, fanart, Her revisited, Michael Bay's masterpiece: Armageddon, Moon, swearing, an after-school special on drug use, 'notable people from' on Wikipedia, and after a shocking amount of time, the supposed topic is briefly touched upon: monkey copyright.

Spoilers for Moon.

Also: you have homework. Blame Brady.

Show Notes[edit | edit source]

Other[edit | edit source]

Fan Art
Oh, we've got loads of time. We've only been going an hour and ten minutes on follow-up. Well, looking, we have things that we theoretically sort of wanted to talk about. I don't fancy our chances. Yeah, I don't know if we're ever going to get to anything. I feel like this is just 100% follow-up. It feels like a very long time since we did this. It has been a very long time. I think, for us, it's been almost three weeks since the last time we recorded because we recorded the last two back to back. So that's why it feels like it's been such a long time. You know how, like, you see, like, your wife every day and every single little thing that happens in life can become a conversation. But then when there's like a mate or someone you haven't seen for a really long time and you talk about what's been going on since we last saw each other. And there's like so many things. You almost don't know what to talk about. Like, what qualifiers has been big enough and important enough to talk about when you haven't spoken for a long time? Yeah, that's exactly it. When you haven't seen another person, you can't talk about the little things because they're not involved enough to care or for it to be meaningful in the slightest. So you just have to talk about the big things. But three weeks is difficult because three weeks is like nothing really big could have happened. Yeah. But probably not happened. But the little things all that were said in the same two little stuff. Yeah. Three weeks is probably the worst possible gap between talking to friends or recording podcasts. I actually had to go back and listen to our old podcasts like I made fun of you doing on the last show because I just I felt like I could not remember at all what we talked about. And then I was, oh yes, what a delightful conversation about flags that was. How great. Did you enjoy listening to it? Oh, I am not going to lie. I did enjoy listening to me talk about flags. I know I made fun of you for this, this same behavior last time. But I thought, wow, that was really enjoyable. I'd listen to that guy again. You know, in one of the last podcasts, I think it was the last one I jokingly said that I'd be sitting by the pool in Morocco listening to our podcast. Yep. Well, I was sitting by the pool in Morocco. And I was listening to our podcast. But like there was kind of a reason for it because people people may not care. But the way we make this is you usually send me kind of a very rough cat once you've put it together. So I can have a quick listen and give you some ideas for titles and the editing and things like that. And so I was listening to those before you had put it up. So I felt like I had to listen to it. I was helping you. I was doing my job. Yes. And there's another sort of thing where which I'm often aligned about by my wife was kind of chuckling at my own jokes, like just in just in general, like I'm with people and I say joke. I'll have a little laugh after I say it. I was sitting by the pool. And then and then I heard myself make the joke that I will be sitting by the pool in Morocco listening to the podcast. And I was sitting by the pool listening to the podcast. And then I laughed at myself making that joke because of the funniness of the fact that I was doing it. And then I paused the podcast and turned to my wife next to me and said the funniest thing just happened. I was listening to the podcast. I said I'd be part of the pool in Morocco listening to the podcast. I'm by the and then I told her like the whole meta joke. And then I laughed laughed at the joke of the joke of the joke. So it was a bit like inception. I was laughing at this joke about eight levels down. And I just thought this was the most amazing thing ever. And then I know she got on her phone and said she did not. She did not think it was the most amazing thing. So I'm back. Did you have a good time in Morocco? It was amazing. Yeah. Very hot. It was very relaxing. We were staying at this kind of quite nice place, which was quite grown up type place. Not many kids there. And then a few kids arrived one day with a family. The worst. Yeah, I know. Things happen. So anyway, there were two nights we were there. They have like this open air cinema where they just set up some rugs and lovely cushions on the side of a hill and they play a movie. So they were going to play Casablanca. And of course, if you're in Morocco, and I'd never seen Casablanca. And not I had my wife and we were really looking forward to it. This is going to be really lovely watching Casablanca under the stars in Morocco. So we went and we laid we laid down and they had like these they've got these wireless headphones. So it was really nice. It's a really nice thing. And that we'd seen a movie earlier in the week. So we knew how lovely it was going to be. And they didn't tell anyone this, but we there was a delay starting and then we had to watch all these trailers and all these things. And then eventually that the film started. And it wasn't Casablanca. They played hunger games. Now, don't I like hunger games. It's a good film. But I'd seen it before. It's not what I was expecting. With all day we'd been looking forward to Casablanca. They hadn't told anyone they weren't going to play Casablanca. And we so like I took my headphones off and I sort of said to the people, what's going on? And they said, oh, the kids went to the manager today. I wanted the kids went to the managers today and said, can we watch hunger games instead? And the manager said, okay. And they didn't tell anyone they changed it. And they just played it. And like everyone had turned up and like was all sitting there romantically with their glasses of wine waiting for the film. And then the different film started. I tell you what, there was some there was some quietly unhappy people there. So man, I went and I'm ruining everything. We went back to the room and I asked for the DVD of Casablanca so we could watch it in our room. And they brought it to me and we watched the first 20 minutes and got tired and fell asleep and said, I will watch it tomorrow. And the next day. What an exciting evening. Yeah. It wasn't pretty exciting evening. I stayed calm. So anyway, the next morning the people come to the room and they say, can we have the Casablanca DVD back? And they were very sheepish. And I'm like, well, no, I haven't finished watching it. And after what you did last night, I'm hanging on to it because we're going to watch it tonight. And they said, we really need it back. And I said, you know, how in it back? And they were like, oh, we need it because we're going to play it tonight on the big screen again. And it wasn't a movie night that night. And it turns out so many people had gotten their nickers in a twist about this. They've been this huge mutiny. And the manager had like realized the error of his ways and they had to have another big movie night the next night. And they did show Casablanca. And it was lovely under the stars. Very, very nice evening. Do you know this thing about kids right? Because we're here winging about because we don't have kids. And when you haven't got kids, it's easy to winj about not having kids. Well, it's easy to winj about kids because they're like little monsters, former teacher here. Yeah. In the last podcast, you made some, some, oh, when we were talking about dogs and we were talking about having kids versus dogs. And I thought all the viewers that had kids would get in bit of a tears and say we were being too clear about kids. Not a single comment. I was going to bring it up the same thing. I was amazed not a single person complained about our comments that dogs have more responsibility than children, which I'm going to take as evidence that people who have dogs and children know that we are right about this. But you know, you suggested that, you know, languages in schools is unnecessary. And it was like an international incident. And then you might say, but then the thing about kids, nothing. I don't know. It must say something about our audience, I guess, but no, I think it says something about how difficult children are relative to how difficult dogs are. That's all that's what I think it's it. Well, by that rationale, because of all the outcry over your teacher stuff, that means you must acknowledge your teacher stuff was wrong, like your language stuff. No, no, it isn't work both ways. It only works one way. Okay. What have we got on the list of things to follow up? There was some talk about your love of checklists and sort of a challenge was thrown down to guess what grace daily checklist is because you won't reveal what's on your daily checklist for whatever reason. Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. We mentioned that. Are you you threw down a challenge to the listeners to try to guess what was on my checklist? There were some guesses. I did say some on the subreddit. Did you have a look through them? Yeah, there were a bunch. There were a bunch of really good guesses. But my favorite was by a guy called Delusion on the Reddit. And his list is continues on the meta theme because some of the items that he wrote for what he guessed was on my list is one check previous days list and carry over new business to today to arrange today's list according to current needs. Proofreads today's list left justify today's list. Nice touch there. Do life stuff update list based on life stuff make tentative list for tomorrow review this month's list and update accordingly and then review the days list and contemplate any other necessary lists. And I thought he's kind of right in a it's it's not too far off because I do use many lists to manage my other lists. So it's general but it is it is kind of right well done to delusion. The most accurate if least specific list you could possibly make. So I like that. I like that a lot. So of the other people who are making like more serious guesses. They were quite away off the mark or were there any way you thought? No, people some people were on the mark. One of the things that I thought was funny was was somebody wrote up a list and one of the items they included on the list was eat breakfast. Somebody somebody replied to them and said nobody would need to put eat breakfast on the list. And then I I chimed in and said actually I do have eat breakfast on my workflow list that is one of the items. So this person was correct. Even though other people were jumping in and telling him now that's too ridiculous. Nobody would put that on there. But I do I do have that on my list. So you remind me that is if you hear those stories about like genius scientists who like employ people to come and remind them to eat because they get so lost in their thoughts they forget to eat. You do that day. Yeah, no, I'm not I'm not doing it because I'm not doing it because I'm a genius scientist. That that was when I was a kid I would love to have grown up to be a genius scientist but that was not in the cards for me. Turns out I am neither smart enough nor diligent enough for the genius scientist route. That is very hard. I mean I mainly actually have that on my list because I am I think we've touched on this before but I am very aware that my whole day's productivity is very sensitive to slight changes in the morning. So I like things have to go very smooth when I first wake up to kind of getting into the office and starting work. And so I I try to make that part of the day really mechanical as much as possible. Just do these things in this order every time to try to ease me into getting a good start on the day. So that's why I do have breakfast on there but I don't have other meals. It doesn't say don't forget about dinner. It's just like this is the order that I want to do things in all the time. So that's still haven't convinced me why you would have to have that written down though. Like you're not going to forget to eat. Yeah, it's nothing it's nothing to do with the forgetting. It's it's everything to do with the the ritualization what you're doing first thing in the morning. That's what it is. So this is this is just a way to encourage a little ritual in the morning which I find is beneficial to the whole days work. But you haven't got like brush your teeth or get dressed on the list presumably. No and this is the thing with with some checklist discussion. But why does breakfast what what is it about breakfast that gets it on the list that put on my underpants doesn't have yeah that means it doesn't go on the list. This is this is the the art of checklist creation. Oh that's going to that's going to be your book isn't it? Well out of checklist creation. There's a there is a book if I can remember off the top of my head the title called which is worth reading probably mentioned at notable at some point but it is the checklist manifesto by a tool guande who's a doctor. Very interesting book and it talks about how do you make checklists in different environments and one of the things that he talks about is for example prepping surgery patients. So what you need to have a checklist of what is going to happen to prep someone for say open heart surgery. And the there's a real art in making a checklist that is effective and that you can't put everything on there and that they're actual studies showing I know how often do things get forgotten or how often do things get messed up. And if a checklist is too long people tend to go through it very automatically without really thinking about it. But of course if it's too short you end up with errors because you're leaving off things that you're assuming people are just going to do but sometimes they don't. And but you want very obvious things on a checklist and he also talks about pre-flight checklists for airplanes what needs to be on this I know I know you must be getting excited now. Checklists are really boring until their pre-flight checklist and all of a sudden Brady's years perk up. That's right. Well go now go for launch. Yes. Capcom. Yes I'll go. I love that stuff. That's cool. Yeah. That's when checklists become cool. Yeah checklists are never more cool than when they are dealing with spaceships. Like go and go checklist. But but but so it's it's an interesting book to read to talk about what what should be and should not be on on this kind of list. Yeah so for me things like brush teeth put on pants right this is not on the list because they just they happen very naturally. But I think eating breakfast falls into that category. That's what I don't get. Like I I respect that you can't put too much on and you can't have too little. I'm just surprised that you know eat corn flakes isn't is one that would make the list. For for me it's sounds so dumb but for me I am aware that that breakfast is a bit of a a trouble point because very often I will wake up and I don't quite feel hungry and I have learned from experience that this is dangerous because I feel like oh I don't need to eat right now. Let me just start peddling around with some sort of work but it's not really work. This is this is one area where I'm aware that things can go a little bit wrong. So it is helpful to have a bit of a nudge that says even if you don't feel like it just eat your standard breakfast now and then move right along this list into into getting things set for the day. So I do have on that checklist that while I am making breakfast I do create an additional checklist which is relevant to the events that are going to happen in the day. And like that that is that is a nice like let's get going on the day routine and breakfast is a is a sticking point whereas you never forget to brush your teeth because you just feel so disgusting as a human being until you have done it. So there's no way you're not you're not going to do that but yes. Do you use an electric toothbrush? Electric toothbrushes are a recent addition to the grey household. And mine? Oh boy like a week ago. Did you I was on red at the other day? And there was a there was a question and I asked red at like what what what purchase less than a hundred dollars or something has like been most life changing for you. And I was amazed by the number of people who said electric toothbrush. And I've been thinking about one for a long time. So I took the plunge and got one. Is it another sonic care toothbrush? No I didn't get that one. What did I get hang on? It's I think I got an RLB one. It's a posh one. It was quite it was it was a posh one. But I read all the reviews and the sonic care did look good but for various reasons I went for this other one. What's been your first impressions? My wife decided that we were going to convert to electric toothbrushes. And so this this just happened and we've had them for several months now. And here's how I know that this is a thing that has become part of my life without me really noticing because at first I was all unreasonably grumpy about this. Oh change for no apparent reason. I don't know about this. I have to charge my toothbrush. I have enough things in my life. I need to charge. I don't I don't need to charge something like a toothbrush. But anyway so we I started to use it and we have the sonic care one which I highly recommend. I think it's very good but it is very strange to use at first. It's sort of tickles. It takes a little while to get used to it and then the feeling goes away. But I cannot remember where was I. I was overnight somewhere for for travel purposes. And I did not have the electric toothbrush. I had a regular toothbrush. And when I used it it felt like I was brushing my teeth with a twig with some leaves on it. How did I ever use this barbaric tool before? My teeth don't even feel remotely clean having used this stick and these leaves. I think I've just moved a whole bunch of junk around and possibly made my mouth dirtier than it was before. So I cannot go back. I know once you go to an electric toothbrush there's no turning back. You can never you can never reverse this path. At least that's that's my feeling on it. Have you used a normal toothbrush or are you only doing this for a week? So we'll check again. Yeah a couple of weeks but I mean it makes brushing your teeth like fun. Like I really look forward to it. Like I am now brushing my teeth once a week whether I need to or not. Oh boy. No but seriously I am I love it. Like it does it makes it fun. Like I want to I want to do it for longer. Like it's like Oh just give me another minute or two brushing my teeth. This is it's like how the shredder has made throwing a paper away fun. The electric toothbrush has made brushing my teeth really fun. I'm surprised that you would have taken converting you know you're this you're this Uber tech guy that loves everything modern and thinks technology is the answer to all our problems. And yet you were happy using the twig and leaves for so long. Well first I didn't know that it was twig and leaves and I was using it. I had to have my eyes opened to the reality of the situation. There's the conflict in which I'm I also value simplicity. And I honestly I always just thought electric toothbrushes were a gimmick. I thought this is just the company needs to sell more expensive toothbrushes with higher margins on them. And so they're trying to convince me that electric toothbrushes are the way to go. And then this is just some some little gimmick thing. So I never considered them as being genuinely better. But they but they really do feel much much better. So yes I did need convincing because I was valuing simplicity. And like I said I didn't want another yet another thing that I have to charge which I do find irritating. Yeah. That that that is one part because at least and at least in our bathroom. This is something with the this is a small irritation in the world of living in England is the electric sockets in bathrooms over here. Yes they don't have it's in the electrical code I think that you can't have you can't have a regular wall socket in the bathroom in the UK that you have these wimpy wimpy little shaving sockets and maybe one if you're lucky. But this is frustrating and so I still don't like the fact that I have to have a little charging station for my toothbrush in my office because there's no other place to put it. Yeah. So I don't like that thumbs down on that I would like there to be wireless charging or magic or just an electric socket in the bathroom. I know I think we're I think we're okay. It would only cause a few hundred extra deaths a year and I think for the convenience of you being able to charge your toothbrush in the toilet it's it's worth it. It would it would cause no extra deaths a year. Why is it in the electrical code if they like why have they made that the lower that you can't have these full power sockets in the bathroom. Because they're overly cautious we have full power sockets in America. You don't hear about rashes of people dying. This is what we have circuit breakers. You don't hear about it but doesn't it doesn't happen. I suppose okay. All right. Let me hear. Let me let me let me Google something hold on a moment. How many people die from electrocution in the United States every year? In the bathroom. Um, electrician killed by electric shockwalf fixing bathroom lights. You don't have to go through every individual new story. I'm hoping for sort of an overarching statistic here. Yeah. No, I understand that. I'm just trying to find out that the top link is nothing to do with the number of deaths. Okay. Let's try something else here. I can't even find anything. It's just I'm on the right. I would like to know they will. I'm going to assume that basically oh god. Wikipedia sometimes has terrifying pictures of things. It's like I was scrolling, scrolling. Oh, that's what electrified flesh looks like. Thanks Wikipedia. You could have worn me. What is this? Electrical safety foundation international. Seriously, we need to come. No, no, hold on, hold on, I'm almost there. Don't. Don't. This this interlude of gray Googling something on Hello Internet is brought to you by Dr. Pepper. Yeah, this is I'm going to assume that basically this is so infrequent as to not be mentioned. Like I'm seeing all these statistics about injury from electric shock just in the household in general. I'm seeing almost nothing about deaths from electric shock. I refuse to have electricians. I refuse to believe that Americans are killing themselves in their bathrooms. They they they do some pretty silly stuff Americans and there are a lot of them. There are a lot of them. Yes, but anyway, I will I'll be curious. We'll see if we can find some actual statistics or some some intrepid listener can find some actual statistics about death in the bathroom accidental from electricity. I'd be curious to know, but I would I would bet that it's not it's not very large. That's my guess. I'm betting that it is large. All right, well, we will see. So I'm looking at our list here of things in follow up. We've got through one of them. Today's sponsor is audible.com, leading provider of spoken audio information and entertainment. Listen to audio books whenever and wherever you want. After we recorded this podcast, I went and looked and indeed the checklist manifesto how to get things right by a tool guandai is available on audible because they have over a hundred thousand books to listen to. So this is definitely my recommendation for this week. If you are interested in the art of checklist creation or just a book that talks about the problems that can arise when you have humans working in organizations. How do you make sure that everyone in a hospital does what they need to do or how do you make sure that everybody in an airline does what they need to do. This is the book to listen to. So I highly recommend that one for this week. And of course, if you sign up to audible with us, you get a free audio book to listen to. So if you want to listen to it, audible has it with over a hundred and fifty thousand titles and virtually every genre you'll find what you're looking for. To get your free audiobook and 30 day trial today, just sign up at audible.com slash hello internet all one word. That's audible.com slash hello internet. humble bragging. Oh, okay. I have to just talk about this for a little bit. Since it came up, I think you you kind of brought up the term. I hadn't heard the term. You know how you said on Twitter, you were getting notifications of every single plane crash that ever occurs. Yeah, I also see that people tweet you with just about every you every use of the word free booting that ever happens in the world. So I experienced the same phenomenon where it seemed like everybody was tweeting me various humble brags. I'm getting it. I'm maybe not as much as you, but I'm getting a lot of that too. Yeah. Every time someone says it in every time someone humble brags. Yeah. The Twitter lots of yeah. And it's like people don't know what this word is. I've seen several news stories. Are people showing me some humble brag? That's not a humble brag. So I think the fundamental thing about the humble brag is you are complaining about something in a way that makes you look awesome. That is that is the key thing is is this opposition. Your your ostensible complaint. I don't think you have to be complaining. But I think you have to be saying something either a bit negative or something like it has to appear that the premise is something a little bit self deprecating when in fact the intent is the exact opposite. Yes. That's a better way to put it. But complaining is too specific. But yes, you are describing yourself in ostensibly negative terms, but you're actually pumping yourself up. Yeah. It is sort of what you do. And there is a there is a Twitter account and it is just at humble brag. And what I like is it is an account that just retweets people making humble brag. But doesn't comment on them. It just just doesn't say anything. There's no it doesn't tweet itself. It just retweets other people. That's class. That's a class. And some of them are some of them are just just celebrities or they're people that you might you might know. So let me say if I'm just pulling it up here and let me see if I can just find a couple examples of ones that I think are good examples of what a humble brag is. All right. Here's one where humble brag are retweeted Steven Frye. And he says, Oh, dear, I don't know what to do with the airport. There's a huge crowd. But I'll miss my plane if I stop and do photos. Oh, dear, don't want to disappoint. Yeah. I think this is an example of a humble brag. That is a that is classic humble brag. Right. Because it's it's like, oh, there is this problem. And I don't want to disappoint people. But I'm talking about the enormous collection of people who are here because I'm here. That that is a humble brag. Okay. There's another one here, which I like, I don't know who this person is, but it is a guy called David Garland. And he includes a screenshot with this, by the way. He says, Oh, that awkward moment when you go to bodybuilding.com and the graphic on the left side is you. And it has a picture of bodybuilding.com with it looks like his advertisement featuring his own shirtless picture on the left side of the page. But he's presenting this as though, Oh, it's so awkward that I'm on bodybuilding.com. I can't show my face in public. That like that is what a humble brag is. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. So I just I just wanted to mention that. And so people, I don't know, just stop sending these things, which I don't even know how to describe describe them. But it would people would send me anything that was, I guess, a brag. But a brag may be done in a slightly roundabout way. I don't even know how to describe the things that people were sending me, but I just found it infuriating. None of these things are humble brags. There needs to be this opposition. It can't just be I'm really great. And isn't that great? Is it a humble brag to say, I have this legion of followers who keep tweeting me humble brags. But oh, no, they keep getting at wrong and they aren't really humble brags. Are you humble bragging? I would I would say, I would say no. Because I feel like I'm not trying to build myself up in that. Whereas like the bodybuilding.com one is different. You're trying to promote, you're trying to promote yourself. That sounds like it was a humble ad. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking to find some other ones that are good examples. The thing I get sent a little bit, I don't want to say I get sent all the time because I sound like I'm humble bragging. But the thing I get sent a little bit on Twitter is misuse of humble, which is obviously where this whole conversation started with my little complaint about people misusing saying I've been humbled. So a lot of people are sending those to me. And the thing that I find interesting is what they're doing is they're finding someone who tweeted and then they're they're like doing a retweet like the humble brage at humble brage guys does. But they just put me in it as well. They put at Brady Heron in it as well so that I will say it. But they don't often they don't comment on it. They just like you know. And I always wonder if the person who made the original faux pas is wondering why some stranger is tweeting their tweet to this guy called Brady because they're included in the tweet as well. Right. Right. Without comment whether that person's going why are these people talking about me? I don't get it because I don't like I don't reply or anything. So they must just be a little weird moment in their life. Twitter is strange sometimes. Yeah. I'm just going through the list here on on humble brage and I'm scrolling down. They have a few from a from a long time ago which were from the Emmys. There's one guy who has posted a picture of him holding an Emmy and he says why am I not smiling in this picture? I have no idea. Or there's another one here complaining why can't I look cool when I meet Tom Hanks and he hands me an Emmy instead I look so nervous and then there's a picture of them getting handed an Emmy by Tom Hanks. These these are all humble brags. Get your act together people. Great. I don't want to hear your humble brags and there's their proper humble brags. Next on our list follow up we well I was going to say we it was more you spoke for quite some time about the design of US state flags. Yes. Yes. There has been considerable discussion about it on Reddit and elsewhere. I think we've both received a lot of tweets and emails. I've probably received more emails not because I'm more popular but because people realize they should email me if they want to get an email to you. Yeah email ready. Yep. I now ignore those emails people so you could lay off on those ones. He doesn't. He still sends with them email ready. That's good though because I become like this like filter. If someone ever emails wanting to offer you like a large sum of money I'll tell them yeah okay do the negotiation with me and I will like do the do and just take a little cut off the top that you never find out about. Maybe I don't know that could be profitable for both of us if it works out right I don't know. Yeah. Tell me about what's been coming to you and your reflections on that discussion. Yeah yeah obviously it was a incredibly great discussion that I enjoyed listening to me talk about again and you just got on loop you got to sleep to it every night. What I wanted to point out is people sent me two things in particular where people had redesigned the US state flags and I saw a whole bunch of these and I thought there were two that were interesting and worth mentioning I'm just actually I'll send one to you. Okay I'm looking at this you know I should be stand. Yes. All right you have to scroll down about a hundred times on this page. Okay I'm looking at the are they the current flags are they? Yes they scroll down scroll down there is just below there's actually a slightly interesting thing here which is the the US state flag. These are the ones I've looked at yeah. Okay so this this first one is a it looks like it's a design project where they decided to do what is sort of the Australian model which is unify the flags so can we do all of the flags and give them a similar look? Like I was like having a style god. Yeah so like almost having a style god and they they settled on a couple points. The main one which is the most visually striking right away is that all of the flags are going to be done in only three colors. A red, a blue and a white so the American colors. Yeah and they they picked. There's a there's a strange thing which is I always run into this whenever I use an American flag in my videos is the actual colors of the official American flag are much darker than people think they are. It's not a bright blue and a bright red they are really dark colors and if you go to Wikipedia they have the flag is the official colors and it almost looks strange because people aren't used to seeing it so dark. I think most flags that people buy like on a stick that you wave in a parade those are I think those are just done brighter than they really are. Yeah or even a real proper ones I guess often got sunlight. Yeah yeah yeah they've just yeah they've been lightened up for various reasons so I actually often tweak the colors of the American flag in my own videos and for my little uh America country girl I know I lightened up the colors on on her skirt because it just looked weird otherwise to use the colors. I'm surprised you would do that a stickly for detail like you I'm disappointed. I think that because I am American I'm allowed to do it. I wouldn't do it with some other countries flag but it's like I'm American. I'm gonna you know America this up. That's right Her own flag is not American enough. Son of our freedom has to be someone actually tweaking those colors in a video. Yes. Yeah. So but anyway this redesign what they've done is they they too have decided that the traditional colors are too dark and they've gone with very bright blue a very light bright blue and a bright red color and they have picked a few elements stars and stripes and tried to do all of the 50 flags with a unified look and actually do you have any you have looked at you have any thoughts on this redesign? Well first of all can I just say to all of those people who are listening to this podcast and audio format which is a hundred percent of you apologies that we're talking about things we're looking at on a computer screen. No this is just gonna be a theme. For those of you who have cold who have gone to the show notes and cold up this page and is looking at the same thing I'm looking at my thoughts are a kind of bland boring sameness I have to say. I'm it all looks just like a you know that they're cool. I imagine each on their own would be cool but when you see them all together it looks a bit too samey and none of them catch my eye like I don't look and look at one and think Texas or look at one and think California I just look at it and think there's a whole bunch of flags that are all kind of similar. It's funny because it's my thought too. Now first we have to we have to agree as all right thinking people do that almost anything is better than the current state of the state flags which is just hideous. So this is this is this is better but it's interesting because I would have expected that I would like this a lot more than I actually do and I would almost have described something just like this if you had asked me what would you do with the flags if you were going to try to unify them and I would think I would probably make all the exact same design decisions that this group has done as well. Let's let's standardize the colors. Let's standardize design elements. I like a lot of these individual designs. I mean of course obviously Maryland is made vastly inferior because Maryland has the best flag and so you know they had to change all the colors with Maryland. It's like oh what a shame to lose that beautiful flag. Is that the one that had the yellow and black check? The yellow and black checks with the red and white crosses. Yes. That is the answer. It's beautiful. It's a disaster. Beautiful. So yes I was very interested by this design because I guess that I expected to like it a lot more than I actually do. I still think it is a great bit of design work and some of the if you go through all 50 if you are a flag nut they've made some interesting choices about what the representations should be for various states. If you're familiar with the states it all I think it's interesting to see but I agree I think it's almost too bland and I wonder if 50 is just too many to try and standardize except and now I'm going to send you the second link. So here's the other thing I want you to take a look at. Okay. I'm waiting. I'll put on Skype. This is winter is coming so what have they they've done this using a motif of the banners in Game of Thrones over there so it's like house Connecticut house Idaho they've done them like them. These are good. So now I don't know if I've never seen Game of Thrones you have seen Game of Thrones. I'm a big fan yes. I'm assuming that this I will rely on you to say that this is some there's some the houses in the show or there are four or five or a bit more houses and each one has a very distinctive banner you know that they will take into battle and they look just like these things and it becomes a big part of the show like the House of Stark have have these wolves on the airs and things like that I think the House of Lannister is that a line on the Lannister House I think so yeah these houses each have a very distinctive motif and these these are they're important part of the show. But are these done along that design like did they look like they are? Yes they yeah these look like they've come out of the show yeah this is the so someone's done each state flag and kind of Game of Thrones so it looks like it should be on a on a staff been carried by a soldier into battle and they're very very good. I really impressed by these. Yeah so this is my thought as well is that this this Game of Thrones state flag redesign I love. But the interesting thing about it is this is this is consistent as well they all look related but but without the sameness of the previous redesign and so I thought these two were an interesting comparison because I look at the first one I think oh maybe 50 flags is just too many to try to have them have a theme but then this this Game of Thrones one I think boy is this awesome and they they still look coherent but they're distinct enough from each other and I really like it I think some of them are just the states should just immediately adopt these designs. I mean the thing is I mean part of the thing that makes these consistent though is is quite is almost more what's the word I'm looking for it's almost a there much more detailed it but it's also like they've got like a distressness to them like they look like they're aged and they've got things you couldn't do with a real flag that's part of what makes them cohesive is they've kind of been they've had like a filter almost for lack of a better term put to them yeah there there's a fake aged filter over them it's relatively subtle but it is there that helps make it a more coherent set but I think you have to make it more coherent but I would still say what I think is interesting scrolling through them is to see that they clearly are using a limited but wider color palette yes so that the yellows keep repeating the greens the blues they are all in the same feel they're excellent people should have a look they're really good so the these are my these are my favorite and I think almost every state would be improved immediately either by adopting the first one which is not my favorite but I still think it is better or immediately adopting any of the came up drones style flags for their states yes it's it like cool them sit you don't know in game so the thing is something I wanted to ask you when we were discussing the state flags last time I think we kind of we I think we kind of I think I said and you half agreed that perhaps the problem with state flags was when they created they created by presumably governments and committees and things like that and there are people pulling in all different directions and each state would have had different pressures and different people and so not only is each flag compromised but each flag has been compromised in subtly different ways and you end up with this enormous hutch poch and that's bad but the thing is when you look at all the flags of the nations of the world like on a big map why don't they have that problem when you look at all the flags of the world it they're actually pretty good like there are very few duds very few fall into the traps that you would say the state flags are fallen into and there's not it's not like there are rules on international flags as far as I know I imagine any country can do what it wants and yet somehow they've all kind of it's like they've all almost cooperated and when you look at all the flags of all the countries it's okay it kind of makes sense you don't look at that and think we need to start again like you do with the state flags what has happened on this international level that didn't happen when the states came up with their flags I don't know that's an interesting question I I feel like you are you were right about that but all the world flags look better as a bunch I don't know maybe there is less design by committee for the individual nation flags I don't know if that's true I would say that there are definitely some duds on the world stage but not very many not many when you consider like you know international taste and things like that there aren't there aren't many bad ones that's true what we should do I think I would need to prepare for it and take take a thorough look at this but we could have a whole episode just on the world flags we can talk about their design that would be good sure people would love that I'm sure you would I would I would love that a lot I'd be up for that we'll do that sometimes say what what I was actually you just reminded me one more thing which is sorry I need to look north American this is what happens I don't prepare one of us needs to prepare one of us needs to prepare it cannot be me okay drink I'm just pouring a drink by the way I'm not like waiting myself in case you can hear that I cannot hear that but thank you you mentioned that there are there are no rules for flags about a hundred people after that episode must have sent me this link to the North American vexicalogical association which has a guideline called the five basic principles of flag design and they they have some guidelines which I think are are interesting well I'll just I'll just run through them really quickly this is a checklist is it it's sort of it's well it's it is a is guidelines guidelines so I always find the world of design really interesting it's a nine one yeah I need breakfast eight breakfast before designing your flag now you were just trying to rely on me so the the basic guideline is number one is it should be simple and their their suggestion is that it should be simple enough that a child could reproduce it from memory the second one is to use meaningful symbolism the third is to use no more than three basic colors number four which I definitely approve of no words don't put words of any kind on your flag and then number five which relates to our discussion of the state flags is be distinctive or be related so either stand on your own or be connected to things that are similar to your own and they go through they have a whole bunch of examples of good good design and and bad design both both with the colors or with the simplicity of or being able to being able to reproduce it from memory and what I like is that they perfectly acknowledge that these are guidelines that you can still have good flags that break these rules and what I absolutely love is their number one example of a flag that is hideous but still works is it is it Maryland it is Maryland I laugh so hard when I saw that I thought this is great well I'm not surprised I mean I can't respect the people that make a list that give you five guidelines and then say by the way number six is you don't have to follow the previous five you can't respect that yeah it's like it's like here are the rules for designing a flag and by the way you don't have to follow the rules like well okay well this is and like half those rules will like the most obvious thing in the world anyway like make sure your symbols have meaning yeah thanks thanks for the advice I was about to put you know the planet Jupiter on my flag for I don't know you might you tell it until you gave me that brilliant advice you think they're simple but most of the state flags ignore a bunch of those rules they were no they did they just fought they're just falling in colors no child could ever possibly draw I would say half the flags fail on points one through three immediately and then be distinctive would be related nobody can agree there on what's happening with the flags so that's okay that is following row number six which said you don't have to follow the rows I guess maybe but I disagree you would think that I would be the one who would say you have to follow these rules but this this really is where I am I'm endlessly fascinated by how design works and I don't understand it at all and I you know I read books on design and I find all this stuff really interesting and I just I I am not good at design which is why I'm so interested in this and I don't understand why things look good sometimes and why things don't look good I find this a fascinating topic and it just it seems obvious to me that there there may be considerations but somehow people can break these rules and stuff still works but how do you know when to break those rules I need a I need a checklist for rule breaking this but you but you've but that by that by definition can't exist so anyway well I wanted to just throw that in there because everybody sent it to me and I thought it was interesting speaking of design next on our list of follow-up is has an artistic bent and that is we have had a little bit more movement in there I mean we jokingly call it fan art but it's probably that's probably not the right word for creations from people who appreciate the show and we've been we've posted them on the subreddit previously and there's been a bit of chat on social media about it but we should talk about it here on the podcast one was a song and associated animation music clip that went with it created by a couple of guys who we've kind of cross paths with Alan Stuart who I who makes a lot of music for my videos wrote a jingle for the Brady's paper cut segment sent it to us you've heard it haven't you I have heard I have heard it yeah and then he collaborated with I'm gonna try and say this forgive me Knut I think is how you pronounce his name he's an artist who has been doing some pictures of us previously he animated Alan's song and they put it together on YouTube so there was a Brady's paper cut song and film and and and you styroen of course the robot grey and caveman Brady and a lot of people liked it they said a lot of people liked including us yeah I think I think it was really good we put it on the subreddit for people to talk about I'll put a link in the show notes for people to check out and it was it was very cute Alan is good at writing songs and Knut who I think I've in my head as kitty ninja fish since that's his deviant art name yes it does really cute little diagrams to go along with them so it was really great people should check it out and we will put the link in the show notes what do you think I mean it's funny that this Knut's portrayal of you which started with those drawings and then was used in his animation and has now been used by other animators as the way of animating you so this has become your official physical form in the animation world which is this kind of glasses wearing robot that goes around on like one wheel on the end of a stalk or something what do you what do you think of this portrayal that I mean glasses wearing robot that sounds about right the one wheel thing is a little weird I'm not sure how how quite how I feel about that but I can understand from an animation perspective why you would pick that it makes it look more interesting I think it makes the robot which has no facial expressions at all basically it's very expressive robot though like you do it does become very expressive in its movements and reactions but I think that the wheel the one wheel is kind of what what makes that and the bendable body so it is it is interesting to see how people end up embodying a character version of you and I don't know if this is exactly comparable but do you have have you ever seen or listen to the Ricky Jervais show yes yes I do I like that a lot back in the day so the the the I'm what I'm thinking of is I didn't fall this very closely but he he had a podcast and then it was turned into an animated series yeah exactly yeah they just took the the old podcast and a company animated them yes and so I feel that it's it's a similar interesting thing because I know what those three guys Ricky Jervais Steve Merchant and Carl Wilkington thank you very much as playing another name I know what they look like in real life and they they have cartoon versions of themselves and it's a similar kind of thing it's sort of them but it's sort of not them at all and that's it's a it's a funny thing to have happened so I am fully in favor of the this kind of robot robot depiction of myself like I said but I still feel like robots can look different whereas cavemen everybody knows what a caveman looks like how do you feel about being a caveman well I don't know I guess I deserve it but the funny thing is like this caveman that version of me that Knut does is kind of this o-fish you know is he open sure he's charming he's got oh that's nice if you think but the funny thing is that he's kind of is this o-fish weird not you know not appealing he's not like your dream man and yet he is more attractive looking than I am so I'm actually quite happy with it because I think he's made me better looking so I think I'll take it the the the thing I find this because there's also been this second video that was made by another animator yes and and it's a hi-hi show me it's a hi for some reason I think because I saw the name he or she took a couple of little clips from the podcast and animated them as well and I found that really interesting to look at as well to see us talking you know it with no intent no video intent or anything seeing it turned into a video it was quite a fun thing as well wasn't it yeah it's cute it's a dofsky is the name he took a bunch of stuff and made a minute long animation out of it and I think it is adorable and surprisingly funny yeah when you take the best bits of the show and just condense them down into one minute and add some funny little animations along with it there's probably only about one minute of funniness in the average hello internet podcast so sounds about right sounds about right yeah so he's just going to just condense how I'll show to one minute and save us how a lot of trouble yes maybe the um I have found I found it like I mean we've both been making these YouTube videos for long enough that we've probably gotten used to people who enjoy them contacting us and doing nice things like drawing pictures and things like that to a point where maybe it's no longer a huge novelty but it's still like it's nice but it's not a huge novelty but I'm finding people doing it with the podcast like a whole brand new novelty like it's like it's like starting again from the very start because they're doing it in different ways and they're treating it in different ways and I have actually found that like really good fun I've really liked it oh yeah I'm with you on that the I think it's also partly just that the podcast is a much smaller scale and it feels much more intimate yeah both in the on the listeners end I mean I can understand that feeling yet we've discussed before that when you when you listen to someone on a podcast you feel like you get to know them really well even though you don't and so I can understand that and then we both are actively participating in the conversation that happens on Reddit after each one of these shows and I feel like that is a big part of the show as well is the interaction afterward I mean the number of comments are just are just crazy but it's very fun to interact and it's it's fun to see to see this kind of feedback and and yes I'm I'm much more aware and engaged with the podcast feedback that I am with some of the video feedback because the video feedback just feels so overwhelmingly large sometimes that it's it's a it's a little bit hard to to deal with and and there are places where I have consciously turned that off like I've discussed I don't really look at the YouTube comments for example so it's it's just a different it's a different experience but yes it has been very fun seeing seeing the creations that people have or the things I have been surprised at are the little running jokes that that happen on Twitter where people will you know reference just just an off-handed comment or something but it's it's that same feeling of oh there's an ongoing little joke in this this little corner of the internet and I really like it I like a lot the one thing I do want to clarify or correct from the paper cuts jingo there is a lot in the song that suggests that I I do not like it when people know that I have unfollowed them on Twitter oh yes I am neutral on that the thing I don't like is when they confront me and ask me why I unfollowed them oh that's strange just for the just for the record because you know we're stick we're sticklers for that kind of thing here we are you you've written here Brady Antlers oh yes this was I absolutely love this have you you saw this thing you know what I'm talking about I'm not sure I do yet it's not okay it's not ringing a bell did you see this image sorry hang on I'm calling it up now oh actually yeah I had seen that okay so I this this is one of my favorite memafide little things that I've seen so far which is it is a scene from beauty in the beast I think I think that's Gaston in the center image where someone it is Gaston the villain but he is in his his woodhouse and there are antlers all across the walls from all of his his successful hunting and someone has just pasted your face over Gaston's face who was sitting in his chair being very happy and it just says I use antlers in all of my decorating and I think this picture is just great I really like this this got this got quite a big laugh out of me so yes whoever made that thumbs up I really approved I thought it was great thank you got quite a laugh I showed it to my wife she really laughed and yes I thought this was just this was this is perfect I'm definitely removing old antlers from the house before inviting you and your wife over here no you always misunderstand no because I know what I'll do you'll be giving each other knowing looks and sniggering behind my back I can I can never make you understand my position on this or I think you're just intentionally riling me he's just I don't want antlers in my house it's perfectly fine to have antlers in your house actually we were just discussing the other day that from the photos that we have seen you have an excellent design aesthetic in your house it just happens to not be our aesthetic but that's because we're different people but it is rare to have that's that would be like if I met up with you and I said I'll grey what do you think of my new trousers and you said well they're good for you but I wouldn't wear them that that is never a compliment I I mean it's so genuinely what you are refusing to understand what do you think of my new video grey well I think it's a good video for you to make but I would never make that video I think that's a reasonable thing to say when people make very different videos anyway I really like this is one of my my favorite pieces of fan art so far again I still do not I'm not comfortable with the word fan but people seem to call it fan art I don't know yeah it's fan out but it's from it's not quite that I think I think people understand I concern with the term yeah I know I do I sometimes try to think of a better word to use than fan I sometimes I I will use the word follower but then that's also weird I don't I don't like that word either I mean Jesus had followers agent have fans yeah maybe yeah with fans maybe that's more I don't know I would love to hear suggestions from people but I don't know maybe this is maybe this is just the uncomfortableness of being in this position because it doesn't seem like other people have the problem with being fans I will use the word fan to describe myself for things that I really like so I don't know this episode of Hello Internet is brought to you by Squarespace the all the one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website portfolio or online store for free trial and 10% off go to squarespace.com and use the offer code hello Internet Squarespace has been around for 10 years and they are constantly improving their platform with new features new design and even better support they have beautiful templates for you 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which is middle of the night America time there's a port team is so fast that a human will get back to you before your drop box file can even upload that you want to show them so it's really really quite impressive the amount of support that you get with Squarespace so Squarespace is good for everyone whether you need a simple website solution or your developer and want to get into the code there are so many options and it starts for just eight dollars a month and includes a free domain name if you sign up for a year so start a trial today with no credit card required and build your website and when you decide to sign up for Squarespace make sure to use the offer code hello internet all one word to get 10% off and show your support for hello internet Squarespace everything you need to create an exceptional website I feel like we do need to follow up on your scathing unfair review of the movie her was it unfair I don't think it was unfair well I tell you well I tell you what if it wasn't unfair I tell you what was unfair it was unfair review knowing that you think this film is a thumbs down and should not be watched and you would recommend not watching it to people that you assigned it as homework to all of us no you always do this you put words in my mouth I know I didn't say that I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend this I gave it a thumbs down but for the whole reason I wanted to talk about it is I thought it was an interesting it was an interesting movie to discuss and there are definitely things that you can watch that you don't necessarily like but that you can say are worth watching well hang on what what value is a thumbs down if you still think people should watch the film well what what what well first of all the real value of that film wasn't listening to us discuss it later so I had to okay so you had to watch the movie to fully enjoy the section where we talk about the movie to fully appreciate our witton banter yes I'm incredibly insightful commentary you need to really watch the film in order to to put them on that so I I didn't I didn't tell people oh go watch this movie it's it's an awesome movie and also it's homework right people don't always like their homework and that's what this was this was homework assigned to you to watch the movie and I wouldn't do this for a movie that um that is just terrible and has no redeeming value because today's homework is we want everyone to watch transformers three yeah that's that's what we're going to do we're going to watch transformers three um so yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't do that but that's why I I have no problem assigning that for homework I feel I feel like I feel no no conflict in this I still have problem with your thumbs up or thumbs down classification yeah I have problems with the two but I I I I think that the number of scales from movies can get weirdly arbitrary fast it's hard to it's hard to know what not as fast as your scale where you are either in the category of radars of the lost dark and citizen cane or you get dumped with all the transformers movies which is no I disagree you in the gray classification system now you're is on the exact same level as the transformers movies it's in the thumbs down category they're all they're together on the same shelf no no that's explained to me so you have got a grading system that you're not telling me about or what's going on here all right the thumb the thumbs up thumbs down thing is a question of of expectations about a movie it's it is the whole point of it is to not rank all of the movies from citizen cane to transformers that that is a fundamentally meaningless endeavor and I'll give you an example of of okay so here's a movie do you know the movie Armageddon with Bruce Willis from the late 90s I've been thinking about that film all day because I just made a video about that probe that's gone to the comma so I've been thinking about that film all day I love that film it's terrible when I love it well that is a movie I would give thumbs up to Armageddon but so I'm against better than her no you no you know what I'm trying to say here actually I don't I can't no I don't think I do you tell me what you're trying to say my my feeling of the thumbs up thumbs down thing is you are looking at a movie it is called Armageddon Bruce Willis is on the front and it's about a comet smashing into the earth you have some notion that maybe this is not going to be an entirely serious movie and you're you are going to watch that movie to be just straight up entertained and I think that Armageddon succeeds in that mightily I really like Armageddon honest to God I get emotionally moved at that president's speech at the end of the movie every time I think it is great I want to cheer that president on yeah you're right you know every impossible reach towards the stars it brought us towards this more like this is great her on like I'm clapping but I know it's totally dumb I I but the movie just movies are so funny in this way that that they can sometimes sweep you away despite despite yourself because on an intellectual level I can know boy this movie is really dumb boy nothing is even remotely scientifically accurate in this movie or these things would never happen this way but there's tons of stuff where I just don't care the ridiculous training montage and Armageddon you know what I love it every time it's stupid what are they even doing it doesn't make any sense I don't care at all and it's impossible to say why some movies pull that off another movies don't and so that's why I give that movie a thumbs up it is successful at being what it is so you're saying it's a bit like if Tiger Woods shoots around a golf in 76 he's had a bad day and if I go around in 95 I've had a miracle day so I deserve more credit than Tiger Woods for exceeding expectations I have I don't I have no it's like if a little kid makes a finger painting you say well done and pet no no no car so it has an off day you're like well that's just not as good as your usual stuff because I say thumbs down for you where the kid gets a thumbs up now kids are different kids are different I've never seen a kid do something impressive they're always showing you things it's not impressive I've seen better paintings than that kid oh look at this it's great no it isn't it's not good I feel like it's so clear in my mind the only thing that I would want to add to the the thumbs up thumbs down thing is a is a meth like like a bunch of movies you just don't care it's almost like your problem with her is that it was nearly it was nearly life changing and because it didn't quite get there you're like saying well I don't want anything to do with you all then because you because you were nearly great whereas because I'm again wasn't nearly great you're like okay well you didn't you didn't tease me that's not that's that's not too inaccurate I find that stuff more frustrating the almost perfect stuff is way more frustrating than just total garbage that you don't care about or things that are are indifferent and so yes I think for me a movie like that it is it is aiming very high and in my estimation fails at what it is aiming at and so thumbs down movie thumbs down of course standing by it of course the reason you watched this film in the first place was because Mrs. Gray put it on and and we have had viewers ask what did Mrs. Gray think of it yeah I saw I saw people in the reddit ask about that because we didn't bring up we did mention that your wife liked it more than you did I think it's fair yeah she loves it I've got some I'll tell you something else about her feedback in a minute but let's hear what Mrs. Gray thought yes so Mrs. Gray actually just listened to episode 17 the other day and her as did as did Mrs. that was Mrs. Nymnuffal her opinion was she just thought I was being too kind in the podcast and I said on the reddit which I think is true is that her thumbs down makes my thumbs down look like an enthusiastic thumbs up if you think I didn't like this movie she really didn't like this movie really much much more intensely than myself so she she thinks I am being far too kind to the movie and and well she is almost just an in in articulate ball of rage at this movie as a as a woman who is not only in a relationship but is married to a machine I have to respect her opinion do you know what my wife pointed out something that neither of us noticed about the film which I think makes it even cleverer she thinks the fact that Scarlett Johansson ended up being like she was that kind of hi how you're doing girlfriend type thing rather than I've checked your emails there are three unread you've got to be at the shops at 3 30 pm to pick up milk the fact that that's what Scarlett Johansson became is actually the beauty of the operating system the operating systems becau adapted to the people they were serving and became what the people they're serving need and when you are a sad lonely guy who's a bit romantic and has just coming out of a breakup exactly what Theodore needed at that time was just like a girlfriend and there's a few things dropped into the film that hinted at that because when you see the relationship between Amy Adams and her operating system that she uses in her time of need who is like a buddy like a mate and my wife was saying and that's exactly what women are like when women go through a breakup they kind of just want like a mate that they can joke around with and talk about how rubbish men are and that's exactly what an operating system becomes for Amy Adams Theodore like men you know kind of are a bit more they kind of I think you know seek a new relationship and want to feel loved and attractive and that's exactly what his operating system became and there's another hint to that earlier in the film when Theodore before he has the operating system he's going through that kind of dating dating process and he's going through all the voices and he's skipping all these certain genres of women and then there's a certain one comes on that takes his fancy and he talks to that one and that one is very much like what Scarlett Johansson becomes so it's almost like earlier in the film they're setting up the idea that the operating system is already going to know what he wants and what appeals to him and molds itself to that earlier history and I thought that was an interesting observation whether it's right or not I don't know but it was something we didn't discuss yeah we didn't discuss it but I thought that was I mean that was the whole point of the the setup process like Scarlett Johansson is is based on those initial questions in the computer reading yeah yeah yeah and I know we talked about the fact it adepts to him but in such a specific way but the stuff with Amy Adams passed me by the fact that her relationship with the operating system was completely different yeah yeah and and much more anyway they also mentioned that there there are operating systems that totally hate their users and as background and that's not not for everybody but there were a few people recommended things to watch that we should watch afterwards one of them was a series of television programs that aired a while ago in the UK and that they were produced by a guy called Charlie Brooker who I'm a really big fan of his his writing and his television work and he was behind this series called Black Mirror which was a series of sort of 45 minute programs each self contained and each a kind of little piece sort of either reflecting society or looking forward on society and looking at some of the darker aspects of society hence the Black Mirror name obviously I had seen them before I think maybe you hadn't that have since yeah I hadn't seen them and this was well done in the reddit where people recommended them but this is exactly what you should you what you should do if you want me to actually want something they recommended something but basically didn't describe it at all because that that is not what I really want in a recommendation and what I'm looking for is an aggregate number of recommendations and so in the discussion I noticed that a whole bunch of people mentioned Black Mirror and also didn't say anything about it they just you should watch Black Mirror and so and I happened to have one night to myself where I thought oh you know people mentioned this um it's the end of the day I'm tired I'm not going to do any work let me let me try this out and I didn't know that Charlie Brooker was involved I knew nothing about this I just I just put it on and I thought these were great they were they were really really captivating uh did you watch like all three in the first series or what ones did you watch? yeah so I I watched all of them over the course of of two days I just basically binged it especially because these are these are episodes uh it's really like almost like a modern twilight zone is the closest thing that I can say and if you know that you also know that knowing anything about any of the episodes would just totally ruin it and so as soon as I saw the first couple and I thought man these are great suddenly I'm worried about spoilers and so I thought well I have to watch all of them right now because I'm just going to be worried that I'm going to accidentally run into a spoiler for one of these things now that I've started watching it. Should we not talk about it too much now and maybe set it as a voluntary homework and talk about it another time or do you want to talk about them now or because you are having having said what you just said that people shouldn't be told about them before watching um well how about people skip for a few minutes maybe or pause and watch black mirror we'll talk about it now pause and watch black mirror yeah people's it and then come back in six hours people people did that in the last episode people said they were listening and when we got to the her part they paused and went and watched her and then came back and listened to the second half of the podcast I can't believe that people have the self-restraint to do that I'm quite surprised yeah so I know I guess there's there's not maybe we can talk about some of the episodes a little bit later but the the the one that I just uh I think is is worth following up is it is an episode called be back soon and I think it is episode one of season two oh I probably haven't watched that one then I haven't watched series too oh come on man sorry man I watch season one and I even read what I sent you I sent you the titles of the ones to watch oh what did you think was going on ah forget now we have to stop okay now it is homework thank you sorry everyone I'm sorry everyone I just sent you the titles I have seen moan but I saw that this is not black mirror anymore by the way everyone that's just the movie moan okay um I have sat in that movie quite a while ago now though I saw that when it was quite new so my memory of it is hazy but that's okay I'll just I mentioned it briefly because I think it is an interesting follow-up uh this was this was the other thing there were two things that people mentioned all the time one was black mirror and the other was moan yeah people gave a little too much information about moan when trying to recommend it I think people just don't aren't sensitive to how little information can be spoilers yes but unfortunately I had actually seen the trailer for moan a long time ago and I am cursed with this terrible memory in general but I can remember every every single scene in a trailer and then when I watch the movie my brain is just counting down the scenes that are left that I haven't seen yet and I have just had that ruin so many movies for me where I've just seen a single freaking clip and then it just it rushes everything like yeah yeah attack the block was a an alien movie takes place in the UK right and there was a single frame that I saw by accident once about it and then the whole movie I'm waiting for that frame which of course is at the end and it's just anyway it's amazing what can ruin a film too because sometimes people just saying I love that film it's got like such a good ending I'm like don't tell me that yeah that's even that even that is ruining something because maybe when you're watching it it could have already bad ending yeah this is happening so and I want that to still be on the table when I'm watching a film yeah this is this is also the I think I've mentioned it before but the frustrating thing of people saying oh this is a great movie and it has a twist that's a spoiler right telling someone there's a twist is ruining the twist it doesn't matter if you haven't told the different but anyway so people recommended moan a little too much information in those recommendations people but I had seen the trailer so I didn't mind but uh so just there's a quick obviously spoilers for moan coming up here but a quick little follow up that I thought was interesting to mention is that I was complaining about too much computer racism at the end of the last of of her where you have the the voices in movies that our computers are generally the villains or computers are usually the villains in movies and moan did a very interesting take on that and the the brief setup is that there is a guy and he is working on this moon base all by himself and there is a robot that is working alongside of him and the robot is Kevin Spacey and basically this movie I thought did a really good job of using your expectation that the robot is going to be the villain against you in the movie like you you are waiting for this this robot voiced by Kevin Spacey which is voiced in this very monotone way uh to turn evil and he never does but they they clearly play with your expectations and I thought I thought I thought it was interesting and it was really well done and what I really liked this is just you know for future writers of robots what I cannot stand in in robot or computer movies is the other comical absurd moment where the the computer outgrows its programming or you know it like suddenly develops feelings or something dumb like that yeah and uh I was like well I guess it's not a robot then I guess it's magic uh this is suddenly changes the whole nature of the story what I really liked in moan was that they kept things consistent that from the robot's perspective it was programmed to assist the main character and it turns out that it is assisting the main character in in a in a way that seems to be operating against what it's there to do but I thought it was handled perfectly the robot never does anything inconsistent yeah it thinks like oh my my job is is to help the main character and that's what I'm going to do and he really does help the main character and it's it was it was a really kind of touching uh a little emotional response to this robot especially because that movie again highlighted in some ways the robot is indifferent but he is also just there to help and he he wants to help Sam Rockwell so anyway people recommended moan I liked it I thought it was good it's a very good film it's a very good film do you know what what that's the end of follow up hey actually I actually I don't know if you want to talk about this I have a question for you wow go gray you journalist yeah I'm a little journalist you don't have to answer this if you don't want to but I am curious I'm nervous people see are suddenly the everything is turned right around it's like the robots have grown itself I am curious people may not know this but you do not swear I do not uh well there it depends on your definition of swearing but there yeah there are there are certain words I say that people would consider a swear word but most of the classic swear words the classics I don't and have never said not even once so I am I am curious as to why this is or what is what is your reasoning behind this there there is no um there kind of is no reasoning right like it the reason I don't do it now is it's a bit like an unbeaten streak so it'll be a bit like say like you know my wife will sometimes say go on just say you know whatever words you say the word uh go and just say it just wants for me because because she swears a bit and so she she would find it funny if I saw and I'm just like no I don't want to do it because once I do it like I can't I've lost that little I've lost the streak of having never said that word so I mean what when you say never you mean never from childhood never yeah I get I mean you know I was probably I was probably a good boy and told not to swear when I was young and I was quite and you just listened yeah and like you know my my mum was a formidable person so I would probably would not do something that she didn't want me to do and you know of all the of all the things that most things I was told not to do as a little boy I then did eventually but that's just one that I didn't and I still don't so I don't swear you know there are some words like I said there are some words that would be classified as swear word that I will say yeah well yeah the swear words are remarkably ambiguous yeah even as I discovered when making podcasts Apple has a as a requirement that you label a podcast explicit if certain words are spoken yeah but there is no official list anywhere leave it up to you decide what the words are well this is actually quite a funny thing that's happened to me that I I we should probably talk about this too then you know that I have recently had issues with comments on videos where I've decided that I've had enough of people being abusive to my contributors and doing inappropriate things so I started vetting comments but there is a mechanism on YouTube where you can create a blacklist of words that come to you for vetting and the other comments go through so I've been doing a bit of testing of that to see whether or not that will help nip some of these problems in the bud so I'll let comments go on but if words on this list appear they'll come to me first just to to tick to make sure they're not being used in a way they shouldn't be used you know some racist or offensive or abusive stuff so as a as a result of doing that I'm having to keep a list of words which I'm constantly adding to and as I look at comments and look at the way that people can be abusive and the things they say when they're abusive I will try and pluck out the key words from that and add them to this list so I can come up with this this Uber list of you know watch words or flagged words unacceptable words unacceptable words some of them can be unacceptable in strange ways and and and could be very specific to the people in the videos as well so I have got this list I've just called it up now and I can't read it to you because half the words on it are words I wouldn't say but I've got this funny list then if anyone ever walks past my computer and I've got them on a sticky note at the moment one of those Apple sticky notes if anyone ever calls up my sticky notes I've got this one sticky note off to the side which is just this stream of stream of every rude word you could think of I like this I like this interlinked with other strange words like you know missus or something because some people were making some missus comments that were inappropriate or or a few other words so yeah it's an interesting person who does not swear has a constant visual reminder of all of that yeah and it's like copying and pasting this list everywhere and reading it all the time and say I guess I still I still feel a little bit unsatisfied with your answer though is it okay is it entirely just the streak you don't want to break the streak uh I feel that can't that can't be the whole reason do you know what I'm really struggling to answer that uh not for lack of not not out of any kind of cautiousness or privacy it's just I mean I think I think to for a lot of people swear words I just words they say when they can't think of something better to say but you know that that's not that doesn't mean I think I'm like you know too clever to swear and in fact sometimes a word used swear word is very funny and I sometimes wish I had some of those words in my arsenal when I was making a joke because it could it could add a certain amount of impact or funniness but so there is a part of me that thinks to swearing is like unnecessary because I can usually think of what I want to say without swearing but I can't really answer it you know I think I'm fairly kind of moral and you know do you think it is immoral to swear? No no I don't think it's immoral to swear all of my friends swear and I think well you swear words are funny I'm never offended by other people swearing at all this is what I'm wondering I am sometimes suddenly self-conscious around you if we meet up you hardly ever swear you're a very lot swear really I feel like I swear more than I would like to know but you swear so infrequently that when you swear I even notice that you swear that's how you do notice so I should feel so but I don't notice but I don't notice when a lot of my other friends swear because they swear all the time but you do it so infrequently that's like oh yeah great I swear that's right there's not I can't I think it really is just the streak I think it is just like it's like a novelty like what happens when you really hurt yourself though you know if you drop a hammer on your toe that's not that those words never occur to me to say like people always say that I can't believe when you hurt yourself you don't swear well it's like well that never I'm I'm much more likely to say G-Wiz or Golly or just because because they're the words that come they're the words that automatically come to me I don't think swear words are like in grade and D&A so I don't think it's like the natural thing to do I think it's a learned I think swear words are a learned thing and and because I haven't learned I don't I don't do it but I don't have a problem with it I don't know it's not a big deal it's not a big deal to me in any way and for me it's just like it's like a novelty now okay so I just I want to ask precisely because as I do feel uncomfortable sometimes when we're talking and I NFI swear I'm suddenly aware of oh right he's the guy who doesn't swear no no it might be in your head you have a little moral checklist and you go no no no absolutely no and trust me I have many many vices that are worse than swearing and I would oh now that now this is not interesting okay enough with the swearing I'm not interested anymore what is your worst face no I mean like I think I think swearing is not a big deal I don't encourage I don't encourage it and I don't encourage I wouldn't encourage like you know a child to start swearing but I have I'm quite neutral I'm not like you know some really goody two shoes person who thinks swearing's a bad thing I just happened to not do it just like I think law and balls is a perfectly legitimate sport but I just don't play it myself although I would watch it on TV I don't mind watching about law and balls sounds really exciting yeah okay all right that's I guess I see an interview I was just curious well dad that was hard that was hard hitting man yeah I see if you tell me your most tell me your worst face and then you just blow off the question I didn't get an answer well I mean you know there are some questions that people just aren't going to answer but you know you brought it back when you weren't happy with the answer the first time what was the worst face that you'd be willing to admit on say a podcast well the one I was thinking of when I said that was eating badly I would I would happily start swearing if it meant I was able to have the self-control to not eat rubbish food that is a boring face thumbs down I want a different face oh gluttony yeah it's not interesting well what other vices I am I can be quite lazy and I can procrastinate not impressed when we're off the air I want to hear about the worst of ice that you well what's the worst of ice you did me to on air mr secrecy who won't even tell us what's on his checklist I don't know I think I think I think maybe it's a problem with the word vice I don't know I mean I've got a huge cocaine problem that's what I want to hear that is exactly what I'm interested in all right now let's talk about this I like this oh I didn't I didn't really think of that as a boss but if you want to hear about that yeah that's my that's my that's my interest no I don't know anyway all right what's your worst boss I don't know I'm not sure I think I am suddenly realizing that this is a problem with the word vice I think everyone could be kind of lazy and unproductive and those those are the things that I would often say I just like about myself the most is is when I'm not being optimally productive about stuff but is that a vice I don't know if that's a if that's a vice or I don't know maybe I can end up sometimes playing video games longer than I should that's that's kind of a gluttony vice I don't know I don't do cocaine them so no I don't know yeah you wanted to clear that up just in case people were thinking that was just in case this is 10 to the seven and so I do not do drugs do you know I've never even smoked a cigarette oh look at you yeah have you have a smoked a cigarette I am shockingly boring in this way I have I have never done any illegal drugs and I have never smoked a cigarette and I always feel like the risk reward scenario on that was never profitable so I was going to say also I was never cool enough in high school to be involved with the kids who were doing drugs so yeah you're asking all the time that is what give him to you yeah well book I guess you and me are going to be hanging out again today at the library and yeah not a lot of underage drinking and smoking cigarettes and doing blow at the library and your parents were like really worried about you I'm really worried about you know he's just all he's doing is reading all day he's not doing drugs he's not hanging out with the co-kids yeah that actually that actually always was and always was my parents concerns he's just not socializing enough what do you go out do some drugs yeah we can feel a lot better if you are more popular we're getting into more trouble but it's just it's just shockingly boring well we're boring guys we are boring guys yeah that's that is the bottom line I think I think the fact we've been talking for an air in 45 minutes and we haven't even talked about anything yet it's a good indication of that we have to talk about something do you want to talk about monkey copyright let's talk about monkey copyright okay all right fine let's pick something that's not some follow-ups we can at least have one thing to talk about I want to talk about monkey copyright I did enjoy a little after school special say no to drug section there though and don't swear I'm not actually sure that was the conclusion to draw but it was more boring people yeah it was it was it was more kind of us regretting not doing drugs more than only I was cooler tell me about monkey copyright you know the you know the guy at the center of this story you're about to tell actually lives in my little patch of England here does he I guess I'm showing a bit of parochewonous there because I guess lots of people live in London and every time something like when there's a story about the prime minister on TV you don't go he lives in the same city as me this is my local this is my local news sort of background shining through that if someone is in an international story and they're from like my patch of the world it's suddenly a more important story if you ever look up a place on Wikipedia you always know that the place is not a place when the Wikipedia article about it has a section that is entitled notable people from I'm always really aware of that because basically any place that is a place doesn't have a notable people from San Francisco all right it's it's they don't include that because there's a billion people from San Francisco that if you have to if you have to enumerate the people from your place it's not a notable place you are a big snob my big snob I'm saying that's really I snobby I think no I think that's just true if a if a place is a is a real huge place you can't possibly list other notable people from it just because there are millions of people what a ridiculous thing to say what do you mean absolutely ridiculous thing to say I think it's a true is I you saying that the town of Grantham in Lincolnshire is not a place is that what you're saying what it is Grantham it's the town that Margaret Thatcher came from oh yeah yeah Grantham but it's not a place according to you it doesn't exist I'm looking it up notable people yeah I'm not you know I'm not saying it doesn't exist yes you said it's not a place let me let me try to refine my thinking about it to sound this snow bay no no no I guess what I what I mean is how to let me try to put this a little better oh man I'm gonna look up at the like notable people I like it at the very top of the list they have a serial killer from Grantham who beats out Margaret Thatcher Beverly Attlet serial killer from Grantham not never heard of a English serial killer who convicted convicted of murdering four children and attempting to murder three others causing you this bodily harm to a further six children beats out Margaret Thatcher where you go I'm just looking at Adelaide where I'm from they don't okay okay it doesn't have a notable people okay okay oh I act it says Isaac Newton is from Grantham yeah okay okay okay this is this is also beaten out by the serial killer well you know it's at lunch she's at the top of the list okay this okay this is my feeling about the notable people section of Wikipedia it's purpose seems to build up the place that it is describing but for me it has the exact opposite effect it diminishes the place by feeling the need to list the notable people that come from it I think that is that is the more articulate version of the feeling that it gives me that that is fair enough I think that's a little bit less that makes you sound a little bit less I live in London and over and over and over and it's matters yeah but I'm not from London I guess that's the feeling that I have about this I don't mean it in a snobbish way I just think that that that section always seems to do the opposite of what it is intending to do that by the very fact of saying look at all the notable people from this place in my mind it makes me feel like that place is less notable not more notable okay I understand that logic of what you're saying I see it another side to that I do see another side as well but like where it could say despite despite not having the advantage of a huge swarming population we still have produced people that are able to make it on the world stage so I think it's saying look look we are indeed small but we still pack a punch which you could then argue well that's something only a small puppy would say but yeah and always with these notable people sections what I'm really curious about is how many of these notable people lived in that place I was supposed to how many of them were born there and then left after high school and then all of the notable things came later that that's what I would really like is a notable people who also spent their entire life in this place section I think it's a little weird that a place gets to lay claim to somebody because they you know they happen to to pop into existence in this location and maybe didn't spend a whole lot of time there but anyway that's a whole separate issue we were supposed to be talking about monkey copyright and then you infuriated me somehow I think is what happened sorry let's go back to that I told you that the guy at the center of monkey monkey copyright was from like not even from the town I'm from just from this section of England that is covered by my local news so do you know the guys name no I don't I had pulled up I tried to be prepared and I pulled up some links before and I seem to have lost all of them or oh no wait are they on my other web oh okay great okay so I want I knew I which I tried to prepare a little prepare a little bit and so here we go so for those unaware the the basic story is this guy David Slater who is a nature photographer in 2011 went to Indonesia and he was there to do wildlife photography and the interesting thing that happened is when he was there basically some monkeys handled his camera equipment and ended up taking pictures of themselves with his camera monkey selfie basically yeah it's a monkey selfie and the great pictures they're amazing that I have to say the the one picture that this is really primarily about I'll put a link to in the show notes people should definitely look it is an amazing photograph that this monkey took of himself he had he has a smile he has these striking red eyes it is it is just a really striking photograph and the guy has a few more on his website but it's about one photograph in particular they are just amazing but the question the question about this is does the photographer David Slater own the copyright to this image or not and I saw this happen in 2011 when the story first broke and a bunch of newspapers were posting it primarily just looking this amazing photograph this monkey selfie basically you know it's a cute photograph but what has happened is this has escalated which is that it is actually going to court because Wikipedia is contending the photographers claim that the copyright belongs to him because Wikipedia it's become like a Wikipedia picture and we can make it hasn't it yeah so it's on Wikipedia commons which is a resource that I use all the time to try and find public domain and certain kinds of creative commons images and they list it on Wikipedia as being able to be used now the funny version of this story which I'm going to say almost certainly a whole bunch of times throughout this but it's not really true the headline in newspapers who don't care to fact check things is that the argument is that the monkey owns the copyright to the picture because he took his own picture yeah and like you will see this headline in careless newspapers who are uninterested in the truth and are more interested in selling newspapers the actual the actual argument is that the photograph is public domain because there is no author of the photograph that's really what you were a bit guilty of this headline when we started the talk as well didn't you said let's talk about monkey copyright yep that's exactly right but also I am not a newspaper no I also straight up this is not true but I'm still going to talk about monkey copyright because I am tickled by the notion of a monkey owning the copyright to an image I think this is a fascinating fascinating question about whether what is the copyright of this image does it go to the photographer or does it go to the monkey or does it go to nobody you seem like you're familiar with the story do you have any initial thoughts about this do you think the monkey gets the copyright nobody gets the copyright he gets the copyright what do you think oh I think he should get the copyright why do you think that don't I just feels right just feels right what happened he he left the the monkey picked up the camera like he didn't intend for the monkey to pick up the camera did he the monkey just did it or did or was he trying to trick the monkey into doing it because he thought it would be a cool picture I'm not 100% clear but from what I've read it reads like he's left unattended and the monkey just played I mean if he if he tried to trick the monkey into doing it and thought this would be classic and you know and and did a certain behavior a number of times hoping the monkey would copy it then I definitely think the copyright is his if the monkey just picked it up of its own volition he didn't intend or expect it to happen I think it becomes a gray area this is I'm calling on my extensive studying your copyright law here but my my underlying just got feeling is that it should belong to him because I feel like it should belong to someone and if it's going to belong to anyone I have to belong to a human it should belong to him but why that's the case I can't answer maybe it's not the case I don't know where do you what what's your feeling on it yeah so it's interesting because I was trying to pull up his his web page and uh I have what is currently his his web page now but you can also go to the wayback machine and he's changed the wording on his website about the situation it originally is is not really described very well but then there are are newspaper reports of him talking about like leaving the camera equipment around and then the monkey takes the picture yeah and then the current description is a is a I don't think he's doing this necessarily on purpose but it's a bit ambiguous as as to what happens but it it sounds much more like he was intentionally leaving the equipment around yeah or the monkey to take the picture now I can certainly see how that story would help his case right but it's it's funny because the impression that I get is that this this story gained ground in the first place with the monkey selfie version of it yeah and then it becomes a legal problem and now there is this description which is of him taking a much more active role and I think both of those things can be true it can be true to describe it as a monkey selfie and it can also be true that he set it up so that the monkeys could take selfies but like I'm not saying that he's changing his story or it's just either what details are relevant to do you think are the circumstance changes the copyright situation or the picture like I said it maybe it would so it's funny because my I was think what this makes me think of is my wife and I used to be very avid photographers and kind of competitive about it we did a couple road trips across America and we would often compete to get the better photograph yeah and I think I was very natural when couples I think to think that they're the master photographer and the other ones yeah and my wife is definitely the master photographer and I was always hugely frustrated because I would take 10,000 photograph try to get one good photograph and then she would just casually like oh this looks good click right and one perfect beautiful photograph needs no retouching so she she was always just great about it but we we had a rule that the copyright belongs to the the person's camera so if she uses my camera the copyright for that image is mine and if I use her camera the copyright is hers because sometimes we would just grab stuff was that was that to avoid arguments later over who took the picture that's exactly this is the only reasonable rule even if it doesn't strictly make sense we just have to lay this down as a couple that the how good are your photos that you're having like as it's just a bidding war every time you guys take a photo or something no it's not that good but you have to lay down the rules we need to make it clear about what happens with photographs don't all couples lay down your rules about these things so anyway so this is the question of just we went with the yeah the copyright resides with the equipment for different reasons but I think this is this is just so interesting and it is my my gut reaction just the fun reaction is I want the monkey to have the copyrights to this image that's just great I love the idea about this why are we being so human centric with this notion that only humans can have copyrights to their works cannot the monkey own the copyright to his selfie do not the whales own the copyright to their music it seems like we shouldn't be so human centric in these things but if I was if I was a judge and I was sitting down and saying like okay okay everybody we have to be we have to be serious about this now what is the situation I would say that the same thing that that taking this guy's description at his word he set up a scenario under which this might occur and so he should own the copyright to the image even if he was not the one pressing the shutter what if not not even this case just what if someone had their pick their camera picked up and just taken by the monkey like a tourist had their iPhone snatched and it took a picture do you think that's different and that person wouldn't they know in the copyright yeah well this is why it's it's such a difficult thing I don't know and I actually saw this happen watch at the at the London Zoo they have this this big open area where you can walk in the center and there's a whole bunch of monkeys and this is this was a few years ago and they have these big signs everywhere saying don't take out your phones or your cameras the monkeys love to steal them and I saw some tourists took out their phone to take a picture of these little adorable monkeys and he just swung down from the tree and grabbed it and ran off with delight at his new toy and animals so people forget animals are fast oh man until an animal does something you don't expect us to do you don't realize they're a bit quicker than us yes that's exactly it he was we have we have no advantages to living in nature and you know a monkey you're never going to catch that monkey in a million years and but you're also never going to see it coming you think oh well if a monkey makes a move for my camera I'll just pull it away and it won't no but they're so quick your reaction times are so slow yeah it's like the monkeys in Gibraltar if you go on YouTube you can find a million hilarious clips of the monkeys pickpocketing every and apparently the only reason they do it is because it is funny like this is how the monkeys pass their time is they know that it's a big reaction out of people and they just love it so monkeys nothing but trouble but good photographers but good good photographer so yeah here's the if if you go with a situation where the copyright resides with the equipment there's an interesting problem with that which is talking about okay well does that mean when people use photo booths that the photo booth owns the copyrights to the image like the company that set up a photo booth they actually own the copyright to images taken inside a photo booth I think there's there's some weird situations about having copyright reside with equipment that is that is used and here's the scenario that I think of as the most interesting version imagine this was not a monkey imagine that this guy was reaching some uncontacted people so in Brazil there are uncontacted human tribes if this whole scenario happened but he was just with a tribe that had no experience with technology and so had no expectation of what a camera does and does basically what these monkeys did which was looking at their reflection in the lens and pressing the buttons I think if it's if it's an uncontacted person that human should get the copyright to the image even if the photographer is setting up the whole situation so that it would happen yeah even if the person doesn't have any idea like a monkey what's going to happen when they press the button they should have the copyright to this so I find copyright residing with equipment problematic do you know it reminds me of a story that I've known for many years but I now look at it in a whole new light because of what we've just been talking about and that is a guy I used to work with in Australia was and still is one of the world's best cricket photographers you know in photographing games of cricket he's excellent he's like you know he is the best in the world in my opinion and he used to at cricket matches he would have his camera and go and sit in all the different places around the ground where he thought he would get the best angles and the best sports shots but he would also set up a second camera at the top of a grandstand looking down at a and he would he would fix it on a tripod and set it at the part of the the ground where the batsman was where the action was most likely to happen kind of like home plate for you in baseball you know he would have a just a good shot of home plate to the cricket equivalent and he would get like a trainee photographer to sit there with it so it didn't get stolen or you know and didn't get knocked over or anything like that but he had like a remote control to take the pictures and the trainee wasn't allowed to touch it because I always think I want to just get the trainee to do it good practice and you know they can tell when something amazing is happening but wherever he was around the ground doing his own pictures and his own things from all his favorite angles when something happened like a like a big wicker to a big interesting thing happened he would just press this remote button that would fire off 10 shots really quickly I always thought that was because he just trusted his knowledge of the game and his knowing his feel for when this is a good moment to photograph so and he didn't trust the trainee he thought the trainee would miss miss the magic moment because he didn't read the game as well I now realize this was purely a copyright thing yeah although I wonder I mean this is this is so strange but the you get work for contract or work for hire situations where people are producing artwork but the copyright goes to a company oh yes I mean of course yeah but but there are also plenty of really weird situations with that we're even trying to lock down something as a work for hire you can run into all sorts of weird problems so I wouldn't be surprised if the trainee actually did have some kind of work for hire contract but even still he just wanted to double he make sure that he like an iron clad this is my work it's not your work argument yeah I can't help but as as I'm looking at this this monkey page I have these the monkey picture staring at me he describes what the situation is with the monkeys and then below he says it is a totally humbling and almost beyond my ability to write here experience so we have humbling used on this monkey copyright page X I just just caught my eye there but it probably is humbling if you're a professional photographer and a monkey does a better job than you do that's probably a proper use of humbling it might be although he has plenty of other dramatic monkey photos this guy is clearly no slouch with the wildlife photography although he is complaining that he's he's really crying poor on this like I read an interview with him and he's saying you know I haven't got a lot of money and I need the money from this picture so he's you know but anyway it's an interesting argument and I I do sympathize with him if I if I through luck or circumstance the thing is you know these guys these photographers spend all their life waiting for a lucky moment because that's when that's that that makes or breaks your career in photography a lot of the time it's just that one lucky moment and he had that one lucky moment and it's been snatched from him maybe rightfully but he's that that one career defining moment for him and it's and he doesn't he's not getting he's not catching in yeah the wildlife photography in particular is is basically a kind of lottery that that you have you a lottery that you you pay within time and and you you hope to get one winning image out of yeah but but yes anyway I just I think it is an interesting story I am very I'm very curious as to how this is going to work its way out in the end and this is also where you know I happen to be working on something which even though I don't really want to it it involves copyright and and fair use and the frustrating thing with copyright law you know and why it is an endless topic of conversation is that there are no hard and fast rules ultimately all this stuff has to be decided by a court somewhere on on each individual case and so a judge I'm not exactly sure where the where the legal disagreement is taking place but a judge somewhere somewhere is going to have to rule on is this a public domain image or is this is this his image and I will be very curious to see which way that goes so monkey copyright I hope the monkey gets the copyright um not not really I hope he gets it when you make another video got one coming yeah this yeah this is the this is the thing I alluded to earlier which is the copyright thing yeah I actually I'm okay I'm okay talking about this a little bit because given my timeline hopefully by the time this episode goes out hopefully the thing that I'm working on now will either just have come out or will just be out yeah this is the thing I mentioned last time that I've been brain cracking for too long and I am just trying to get finished and is it is just a huge nightmare and an enormous time sync and a copyright nightmare and I just I want this project to be done and over with even though it is a topic that is close to my heart there is nothing more in the world that I want then for this just to be finished and done and yes so that that is what I have been working on that is also partly why I have delayed this podcast recording one week is because I was just too much in the middle of things but it is been a very frustrating long boring process that hopefully will be over soon I never I never want to work with video clips ever again I feel every video I learn a lesson on what not to do video on law don't ever do law again video on medicine no that's a terrible topic as well and now a video that is primarily composed of video clips that's also a terrible idea it is so time consuming and but if the thing comes out as of right now it looks like it'll be about 12 minutes long wow gosh yeah that's that's forever for me but I have been finding that it takes about a day per minute to make a minute of of things on screen because finding video clips is a million times harder than drawing exactly what I want yeah I'm trying to I don't know if it'll work out but I'm trying to reduce the number of drawings that are going to be in this I don't want it to be such a drawing e-video but I know that that is also impossible to to accomplish so it is all just a nightmare I'll be happy when it's over but I look forward to I look forward to hopefully we'll talk about it in the next podcast I don't know maybe no well yeah I mean I guess I guess we will talk about the topic when it comes out but I have I have no expectations for this video this to me is is I've either says a 100% crowdfunding kind of project I would never have done this video without the crowdfunding because it would just not make any sense for me to spend as much time as I have on it then you know if I was just still 100% reliant on advertising this is exactly the kind of thing that I just couldn't justify doing but I have no expectations I you know of how well it will do I would not be surprised if it was not very popular because it's going to be different than the other things we will see but hopefully that will be done soon I don't know do you want to see a clip of it yeah all right hold on a second|} ==Episode List==

References[edit | edit source]

  1. "H.I. #18: Monkey Copyright". Hello Internet. Hello Internet. Retrieved 12 October 2017.