H.I. No. 8: First World YouTuber Problems: Difference between revisions
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Brady: Uh, you know, what- what languages are we going to- what computer languages are we going to teach in school? Are people going to come out fluent in some code that is redundant before they even reach the job market?
Grey: Yeah, so this is- I- I think- it's an interesting point, I actually, uh, discussed this with Derek a- a little bit, uh, tonight. In any future video or any- any, uh, future podcast that we talk about, I mean computer programming languages in a very very broad way. I- I think there are- there are lots of things if I- if I was having a- a computer language course, that I- that I would teach that would not be straight up computer languages. So, um, for example, when I- when I, uh, worked as a teacher, I taught a course in electronics. And, that was a- a one-hundred-percent hands-on practical course, no code at all. Uh, but what it was, was the- was kids had to connect a bunch of- of sensors and buttons and switches to each other. And they had to make those connections using, um, logic gates. So those are things like "if the heat sensor is active, and the light sensor is active, then make the buzzer sound". Um, so- so I think any kind of- of teaching of logic, to me falls under this category of "what a computer programming language is". Just the very idea of "how do you talk to computers?". And so, even though computer programmers in the audience, right? Their- their head will explode when I put this in the same category, but I would be totally happy to have a lot done in say, spreadsheets. There's an enormous amount of stuff you can do with a spreadsheet that is "if, then, else", right? "If this number is this, then do that thing." That's what I mean by computer programming, just the idea of teaching, "how to communicate with computers in a- in a logical way". I just want to say that that's- that's a very- very broad, um, a very broad, uh- uh, definition. But to specifically answer his question about the- the language, I- I would just say that the languages in the field seem to turn over very slowly. The- there are languages that don't move very much, and--
Brady: Okay.
Grey: For example, uh, you know, if you're using- and it's- it's 2014, and if you're using an iPhone, those iPhones are still programmed in, basically in- in a variant of the language of C, which... [sighs] oh god, I mean, off the top of my head, I'm going to say C is at least, um, 1970s, kind of old. Uh, so that's not- I mean, C is not a pretty language, I've taught- I've programmed a little bit in C. Sorry, C programmers, it--
Brady: [exhales
let me read you something showing, right, which I quite liked. Yeah. And this sort of touches nicely on something you covered a few seconds ago. And maybe this also is where we come to the interesting point where sort of the robot gray versus the human May, but this really appealed to me. Maybe it won't appeal to you. This is what Shawn Right. Yeah. The selling point for teaching language for me is, as you alluded to, in the podcast, the access point to culture, but I would include all human culture in that, more than anything else in our makeup, we are built to understand language. It is literally in our DNA more than physics, math, almost anything else. Language is what distinguishes us evolutionarily from the rest of the animals and as deeply To our cognitive ability,▼
Grey: --it is just kind of ugly. Lisp is beautiful, for those in the audience who are listening, and I do like Python. But anyway, um, you can pick languages that don't change very much, but- uh- much more with computer languages than with say, human languages, the- the internal concepts, the- the logical gates of "if, then, else, and, nand", those things are universal in languages and the- the syntactic differences between programming languages are not as large as you might think they are. So, um--
the second part of that is undeniably true, that humans are I mean, especially little humans are just language absorbing machines that's clearly built straight into our DNA. That that's, that's something that kids do. But I, I feel like I'd have to hear that first bit of it again, but I just just because that's the thing that humans intrinsically are good at when they're young. I don't I don't see that as an art as a convincing argument for why we should teach it in this very formulaic way when they're older.▼
Brady: Let me read you something Sean wrote, which I quite liked.
Well, let me say that he Sean also made the point that Derek made, which is that he thinks it's really important to start Yeah.▼
Grey: Yeah- yeah.
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.▼
Brady. And this sort of touches nicely on something you covered a few seconds ago, um--
And maybe if we started young, we'd be less inclined to give it the flick later on. But something else he said, just because something may be poorly taught is not an excuse for it to not be taught. I mean, I think he's saying there that you're throwing the baby. Hit with the bathwater. Yeah. And if it's being taught poorly at school, don't ditch it. Just teach it better.▼
Grey: Mm-hmm?
Yeah, I think you mentioned this conversation with Derek because it did go on for forever. I'm wondering if this is a▼
Brady: --and maybe this also is where we come to the interesting point where, sort of, the robot Grey versus the human me, but this really appealed to me, maybe it won't appeal to you.
Sean is actually like, you know, Derek trying to sneakily get▼
Grey
it to me get more points. Yeah, I would just say that this is this cannot be the topic for stakes. It'll be it'll go on forever. But the language thing is very much connected with my with my opinions of how school in general works in a modern world, which having seen it as a professional in that environment is is generally very poor. I don't think I think the whole education system has it has a whole lot of problems. And so I would leave it at that that's like there are very many things that I would change about the education system, and I just think languages, particularly ill suited for the sit at a desk kind of learning method. But there are many things They're just done terribly as well in that system. But obviously, we still we still send kids to school. So▼
Brady: This is what Sean wrote:
Grey: Yeah.
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▲Brady: Well, let me say that- that he- Sean also made the point that Derek made,
Grey: Mm-hmm.
Brady: --which is that he thinks it's really important to start young. Um,--
▲
Grey: Yeah.
Brady: --and if it's being taught poorly at school, don't ditch it, just teach it better.
▲Grey: Yeah, I-
Brady: I'm wondering if this is it,--
Grey: [laughing]
▲Brady: --I wonder if Sean is actually like, you know, Derek trying to sneakily get- get to--
Grey: [laughing] Yeah, maybe.
Brady: --alias.
Grey: Get more face time with his points? Yeah.
Brady: Yeah.
Grey: Um, I- I would- I would just say that- that, uh, [sigh] this- this- this cannot be the topic for today, 'cause it'll be- it'll go on forever, but--
Brady: Mm-hmm.
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Brady 26:06
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