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Transcript
 
'''Grey:''' I discovered that at this time of night my office turns into a yoga studio.
 
[HI theme plays]
 
'''Brady:''' Before we start follow-up,-
 
'''Grey:''' Yeah.
 
'''Brady:''' -can I ask you a question about follow-up?
 
'''Grey:''' [chuckles] Yeah.
 
'''Brady:''' There's been some, you know, feedback and comments going around that, you know, we always start the podcast with this sort of follow-up and correcting mistakes and re-discussing things from the episode before,-
 
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
 
'''Brady:''' -and some people like that, but other people have suggested that it's not the way to start the podcast.
 
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
 
'''Brady:''' You do believe it is, you know, and you're kind of the boss in a lot of ways. Why do you think this is-
 
'''Grey:''' Am I the boss?
 
'''Brady:''' Well, I don't know...
 
'''Grey:''' [chuckles]
 
'''Brady:''' I like- I like you to think- I don't want you to think you're the boss.
 
'''Grey:''' Okay. [chuckles]
 
'''Brady:''' Why is this the best way to start the podcasts? Do- you know- do you feel strongly about this?
 
'''Grey:''' I do, I do- I do feel strongly about follow-up first, because if someone is listening to the podcasts in chronological order, it makes sense to do follow-up as the first section, because if they're listening to a bunch of episodes in a row, when they finish episode three, the start of episode four follows very naturally from what we were talking about in the previous one.
 
'''Brady:''' Hmm.
 
'''Grey:''' So follow-up is- is obviously the next section and, uh, when we- when we started when I was thinking about doing a podcast, I did think, "ooh, maybe,- maybe we'll- we'll record the follow-up first, because that's the thing that makes most sense to talk about kind of chronologically,-"
 
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
 
'''Grey:''' "-and then just edit it so it's at the end, and then the main topic is in the beginning", but I don't- I don't think that works, because in all of our podcasts, when we do the main topic we almost always reference something that was in the follow-up in the beginning, so I don't think you can say, rearrange the conversation in- in post.
 
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
 
'''Grey:''' I think follow-up has to be first because like any conversation you're going to refer back to it later on, which is exactly what we do.
 
'''Brady:''' I agree, I- I wasn't sure at the start, but I've been- I've become a real convert to it. I think- I think there's a real culture in sort of media and broadcasting and anything to sort of, you know, put your- put your strong stuff at the start and, you know, don't bury the lead and, pull people in from the start and have a hook,-
 
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
 
'''Brady:''' I think pod- podcasts are a different creature in that way, they are just like a- like a chat, and I think it's okay, like most chats just start off meandering before they settle on a focus and...
 
'''Grey:''' Yeah. And I- I- I- you know- if people enjoy the podcast, which I- which I hope they do, if they're still listening at this point, what are we, eight episodes in? I think this is number eight.
 
'''Brady:''' It is, it is.
 
'''Grey:''' Uh, presumably they're listening because they still like it, and, I know at least for the podcasts that I listen to, it- it's very much- to me it feels like I get to sit in on a conversation, uh, with people who I would not normally get to sit in on a conversation with. I- I- I like that feeling, and conversations- they have a particular flow, right? When you- when you sit down with your friends, you catch up on- on what's happened since the last time you sat down together, you don't sit down at a table and think "Right, what's my strongest opening story to tell my friends when I sit down. We're gonna lead with a bang, and then later on we'll wrap up with the weather, but right now we gotta lead with the main story." So that's just-
 
'''Brady:''' Yeah,.
 
'''Grey:''' -that's not how friends talk to each other, and you and I are friends and we're- we're sitting down, so I think it's very natural for follow-up to come first.
 
'''Brady:''' All right. Let's do follow-up!
 
'''Grey:''' [chuckling] Okay.
 
'''Brady:''' What do you got from last time?
 
'''Grey:''' Ah, so I just had to, uh, make a- make a- a reference, for people who have not been on the Reddit, you really should go, it's great there's a lot of very good conversation on the Reddit, but unbelievably, last time when we put our podcast up, we made reference in the middle of that podcast to possibly somebody about to get on an airplane, you know, who may have just downloaded that and you were talking about plane crashes, and-
 
'''Brady:''' Yes, my- my obsession with them.
 
'''Grey:''' Yes, and I could not believe it, but when I put it up, the very first comment on the Reddit mere minutes after uploading, someone said, and I- I- I- I took a little screenshot here, this guy Thomas said "Yay, excellent timing I'm just about to board a plane, and was regretting that the book-" uh, "was regretting the book I brought with me. Now I have two hours of the podcast to listen to." And then it finished with "You guys are too good to me.", right? Which-
 
'''Brady:''' [chuckles]
 
'''Grey:''' -which was just like the- like a very, very nice comment, but knowing that he was about to go into an episode where we discussed plane crashes for a not trivial amount of time, uh, I just couldn't believe the coincidence that happened there, that the very first comment was exactly the thing that we were- we were suggesting, uh, might occur. So anyway,-
 
'''Brady:''' The best thing about that was, like, in the podcast you made that joke, too, about someone on a plane listening to it, and then you like spoke directly to them for a joke and you said "I hope you're enjoying this, Tim",-
 
'''Grey:''' Right.
 
'''Brady:''' -and that guy's name was Tom.
 
'''Grey:''' Right, so close!
 
'''Brady:''' It was so close to being- Wow.
 
'''Grey:''' Yeah it would- it would have been, uh, it would have been just perfect. Um, but anyway, so, there's fun- fun things that happen on- on the Reddit, and again I just want to say, I think it's- it's a- it's a really great community and- and we were discussing, uh, before recording now that there's a lot of activity there and- and it's great and I really do look over the discussion, so uh, anytime you want to, uh, talk about whatever we discuss on the podcast, uh, the Reddit is a great place to go and there will be a link in the shownotes to whatever-, uh, whatever the link is for this episode, so I'll put that there.
 
'''Brady:''' didDid we hear back from Tom after his floodflight?
 
'''Grey:''' yeahYeah he was- he was actually okay. weWe did not cause him a lot of anxiety, but when he landed on the other end he said that he enjoyed it and so I'm- I'm glad that we did not give him a panic attack on the flyflight- or ''you'' did not give him a panic attack on the flight really, I would say that's mostly your fault.
 
Brady: Do you know what's amazing, Grey?
'''Brady:''' do you know what's amazing gray what like we're talking about we're talking like you know a week later however long it's been and we're not really much closer to knowing what happened to that Malaysia Airlines plane
 
Grey: What?
'''Grey:''' oh yeah so you have to you have to follow these things for me so
 
Brady: Like, we're talking about- we're talking, like, you know, a week later or however long it's been, and we're not really much closer to knowing what happened to that Malaysia Airlines plane.
'''Brady:''' you must know what's going on though you do you're not that you're not that oblivious to the news eh uh
 
Grey: Oh yeah? See you have to- you have to follow these things for me, so--
'''Grey:''' well this might actually reasonably we talk about later but no last last headline I saw was something about a presumably a hijacking is that the current state of
 
Brady: You must know what's going on though, you- you're not that- you're not that oblivious to the news, are you?
'''Brady:''' no we know we're nowhere near that I don't see I don't I don't I didn't think it was a hijacking that the latest is they they seem to be having all this satellite imagery of possible debris you know thousands of kilometers off the coast of Perth in Australia quite quite some distance from where that plane was supposed to be going and so basically it's done a hard left and then just if this is if it's there it's done a hard left and just flown and flown and flown and then maybe ran out of fuel maybe being crashed into the ocean like in like the most remote pretty much the most remote place this could happen huh so something's going on man well it's crazy well maybe next maybe next week we'll know more but this is going to be a this is I keep thinking it's going to be something simple and maybe it's still will but this is looking stranger and stranger
 
Grey: Uh, well- [laughs] this might actually be something we talk about later, but, no? Last- last headline I saw was something about, uh, presumably a hijacking? Is that, uh, the current state of affairs?
Grey: hmm hmm
 
Brady: No, we're no- we're nowhere near that? I don't--
stay tuned stay tuned to Brady's plane crash corner here at hello Internet
 
Grey: Oh. See?
'''Grey:''' yeah I have a feeling like I would I would not want it to be but I feel like you could make this a regular segment every week talk about some plane crash with some interesting story from a plane crash I feel that the the depth of your love for this topic is quite deep
 
Brady: I don't- I don't- I don't think it was a hijacking. The- the latest is, they- they seem to be having all this satellite imagery of possible debris, you know, thousands of kilometers off the coast of Perth in Australia,--
'''Brady:''' at least we're not talking about freebooting anywhere
 
Grey: Hm.
'''Grey:''' yes that's true we're not talking about freebooting anymore although I do have a follow-up item about it but probably not today I'll say before another time
 
'''Brady:''' okay I tell you what what you stood up a right hornet's nest in the last episode with this language education
 
Brady: --quite quite some distance from where that plane was supposed to be going,--
'''Grey:''' yes yes I do know
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' we knew it you knew it was going to happen too didn't you
 
Brady: --so basically it's done a hard left, and then just- if this is- if it's there, it's done a hard left and just flown and flown and flown and then...--
'''Grey:''' I did know that it was going to happen I did know it was going to happen and in in addition to reading all of the reddit comments Derek a veritasium is here in London and he has taken some time out to see me, and I saw Derek earlier today and the day before and I can say that he probably spent at least eight hours of human efforts one-on-one trying to convince me otherwise from my opinions about dropping language classes from the curriculum and
 
Grey: Hm.
'''Brady:''' you got off lightly you got off lightly right where Derek decides he's right about something a oh is this nothing
 
Brady: --maybe ran out of fuel?
'''Grey:''' well I think it's only because he had to fit me in between other appointments of things that he's doing while he's over here otherwise you know I left I left - Derek just just a couple hours ago at the pub I think he would still be sitting there now with me trying to convince Mia if if he hadn't had to go somewhere and we had to record this podcast so he's he was very intense about it and
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' he's and he's and obviously if his opinion is different to yours he's a big advocate of extensive language teaching in schools can you sort of summarize his position for us
 
Brady: Maybe been crashed into the ocean? Like, in like the most remote- pretty much the most remote place this could happen.
'''Grey:''' right the answer is I cannot summarize his position for us uh and I kept I kept mentioning this to him in the bar because he had he had actually a letter to me he had written this whole thing on his iPhone that there was like this is like bullet pointed argument about all the ways in which I was wrong and and all the ways in which I should I should reconsider my positions and to to be fair to Derek I I cannot I think possibly try to summarize his arguments without getting it just just wrong or making him more infuriated because with eight hours there's a lot of nuance that you can go into we can suffice it to say that I was not I was not moved by Derek I have not changed my opinion
 
Grey: Hm.
'''Brady:''' in any way there was nothing he said that made a dent anywhere no chink in your armor
 
Brady: So, something's going on man.
'''Grey:''' well is that it's not it's not shrinking my armor but there are a few there are a few interesting interesting kind of things to bring up about that I'm not summarizing Derek's argument what I'm about to say but I'm going to say a similar thing that came up on the reddit and in some of the feedback that I got was comments about the benefits of learning languages cognitive benefits that are not necessarily the language themself but things that you get from learning a second language. And I always want to be clear I don't doubt that there are benefits to learning another language
 
Grey: Hm.
'''Brady:''' yeah
 
Brady: It's crazy.
'''Grey:''' but my my point was that I don't think the school system as it currently exists actually produces people who are able to speak another language so you can talk to me as much as you want about the benefits of learning other languages and I am all on board with that but the the current school system just it doesn't do that so it's sort of it's sort of irrelevant how awesome it is to speak a second language when we're not coming out with kids who actually do speak other languages so I would say that that was part of the part of the feedback that I got.
 
Grey: Well--
'''Brady:''' yeah but but like you teach people sport and physical education and they don't come out as athletes at the end but the process of playing the game taught them thick not only to have a health benefit a taught them about teamwork at taught them things it improved their coordination it did lots of other things even though they come out as a major league baseball or at the end
 
Brady: Maybe next- maybe next week we'll know more but this is going to be a- this is- I keep thinking it's going to be something simple, and maybe it still will,--
'''Grey:''' yes
 
Grey: --Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' I know you realize this but you seem to say I realize this and then completely ignore it I guess I guess I just my my thought on this is that the the things that I have seen about the benefits of learning of the language are presupposing basic competence in that language, right? when a person has basic competence in the language here are the benefits that they also have and so my my position is just that I don't think most language courses have their students reach basic conversational competence to- to get those benefits it's like- it's like a threshold effect anyway I just I did want to mention that but I also just again want to be clear because Derrick will be really angry otherwise and that was that was not the sole of his arguments and he also had a very different language experience than I did it sounded like he actually had quite a successful schooling experience in general which included which by the way language teachers I think is a good idea starting teaching French I forget when he said but in in primary school he was very young when they started doing French which I think if you're going if you're going to teach language you might as well start when kids are very young right if we're going to do this let's do it right and and start from the very beginning but yeah so he had he had a very different experience with me and I am slightly exhausted but unmov'd from
 
Brady: --but this is looking stranger and stranger.
'''Brady:''' you realize like you realize I've got Derrick Nick's he's coming to me for three days now we're like hanging out for ages am I am I just gonna be bombarded with language stuff or
 
Grey: Hmm. Hm.
'''Grey:''' you may be you may be I do have I do have a personal a piece of advice for you and anyone else who sees Derrick in the next couple of days I have a major regret which is that when I met Derrick we met in the Natural History Museum here in London I I gave Derrick a hug to say hello right like
 
Brady: Stay tuned. Stay tuned to Brady's plane crash corner here on Hello Internet!
'''Brady:''' yeah
 
Grey: Yes.
'''Grey:''' you know haven't seen you in a while hug and I really shouldn't have because Derrick was was sick but I thought let me let me express my great friendship to Derrick nice big hello hug and now I'm feeling terrible I am feeling very sick Derrick gave me a disease from physical proximity I'm absolutely sure
 
'''Brady:''' oh no[giggles]
 
Grey: That's exactly- yeah. I have a feeling like, I would- I- I would not want it to be, but I feel like you could make this a regular segment, every week talk about some plane crash, or some interesting story from a plane crash, I feel that the- the depth of your love for this topic is quite deep. Uh,--
'''Grey:''' he is now on his way to you acting as a typhoid mary of sorts I assume so you and the missus may be shortly experiencing symptoms of not feeling very well so I do also apologize to listeners that my voice doesn't sound absolutely perfect or if you hear me if you hear the sound of like crinkly unwrapping like I'm doing now I have halls and a whole bunch of other medicines that I'm shoving in to my face right now to try to sound a bit more normal so I'm sorry these sounds are terrible but you're gonna have to listen to them for the moment
 
Brady: At least we're not talking about freebooting anymore.
'''Brady:''' we're going we're sharing a hot tub with Derek so worried for a world we're going to let the like force pie the hot sparrin in Bath
 
Grey: Yes, that's true, we're not talking about freebooting anymore. Uh, although I do have a follow-up item about it but probably not today, we'll save it for another time.
'''Grey:''' that's no good you are definitely disease vector Derek that's what's gonna happen to you sorry
 
'''Brady:''' canOkay. I'll share an email withtell you I gotwhat,--
 
'''Grey:''' oh yeahWhat?
 
Brady: You stirred up a right hornet's nest in the last episode,--
'''Brady:''' this is about language it's actually funny there's a bit of a trend I've noticed since we've started the podcast particularly the one we did about email
 
Grey: [groans]
aha are you
 
Brady: --with this language education.
cuz
 
Grey: Yes, yes, I do know--
I'm worried Mel's
 
Brady: You- you knew it- you knew it was going to happen too, didn't you?
'''Brady:''' yes but it's really funny because I'm getting like short emails like you recommended but because because I think we've made our positions clear that you are pretty ruthless with email in terms of not reading it and deleting it and I was a bit more of a softy and I say that I sometimes read emails in case there's and gem in there I'm getting all these emails that are kind of almost directed at you
 
Grey: I did know that it was going to happen. I did know it was going to happen, and in- in addition to reading all of the Reddit comments, Derek of Veritasium is here in London, and uh, he has taken some time out to see me, and I- and I saw Derek earlier today and the day before and I can say that he probably spent at least eight hours of- of human effort--
 
Brady 14:15 [giggles]
yes but it's really funny because I'm getting like short emails like you recommended but because because I think we've made our positions clear that you are pretty ruthless with email in terms of not reading it and deleting it. And I was a bit more of a softy and I say that I sometimes read emails in cases and gentlemen there I'm getting all these emails that are kind of almost directed at you are the director of both of us and they're saying I know grey won't read my emails. I know there's a chance you will Brady So can you tell gray this or can you make my argument for me so So anyway,
 
Grey: -one-on-one, uh, trying to convince me otherwise from my opinions about dropping language classes from the curriculum, and--
Grey 14:49
this is perfect. I like I like this system quite a lot. This way you can filter out the interesting things. So I think this should be a policy right for for any and all the Back in the email form, email, Brady, he will read your message. I think this is great. I really like this. You are basically now a human, Basie and email filter for me for the feedback. So go ahead Tell me what is the interesting thing that made it through?
 
Brady: You got off lightly. You got off lightly, I- when- when Derek decides he's right about something, eight hours is this nothing.
Unknown Speaker 15:18
I haven't thought this story
 
Grey: Well, I think it's only because, uh, he had to fit me in between other appointments of things that he's doing while he's over here,--
Brady 15:22
if anyone decides that they're going to do that, I don't know. I mean, maybe I know, don't email me, you know,
 
Brady: [chuckles]
Grey 15:28
you're still gonna read them.
 
Grey: --otherwise, you know, I- I left- I left Derek, uh, just- just a couple hours ago at the pub, and I think he would still be sitting there now with me trying to convince me, uh, if- if- if he hadn't had to go somewhere and we had to record this podcast. So, he's- he was- he was very intense about it, and uh,--
Brady 15:33
Anyway, I did get this email from a chap named Sean. I don't know if I should say his surname because he might like it being read out. But I'm always really reluctant to use people surnames. I'd say the general policy let's stick with first names showing you know who you are your long email. It was very good. You made a lot of good points. Some I agree with some I have no opinion on but some I didn't make in our discussion. I mean, I like most things in life, I have no really firm position on this whole language in school debate. But I tried to put the other side because you put he put your side so strongly and he made some really good points. And I'd like to share a couple of them with you. One of the points he made, you talked about in the last podcast, how you think sort of machine translation is moving along so quickly, that that's one of the reasons speaking other languages will become sort of, you know, a less important skill as time goes by. He's he politely but strongly disagreed with that. And he seems it seems to be an area he knows quite a lot about. And he he thinks were 50, if not 100 years away from computerized language translation being really top notch like reaching a level that is acceptable for you know, strong purposes, not say I'll send you the email, and you can decide if you want to read it. He made a strong case for it. Yeah. So I just want to throw that in the mix. I I don't know if he's right or not.
 
Brady: He's a- he's a- and obviously, if his opinion is different to yours, he's a big advocate of, uh, extensive language teaching in schools, can you sort of summarize his position for us?
Grey 17:02
I might my my, my thought on that just just very briefly is when I talked about the language translation. We discussed it a little bit last time, but my main thought about that is the scenario of of utility, right? It is a good enough for most people traveling in a foreign country to communicate with the people around them. I think that that is the language scenario for most people, I imagine. Especially especially if you are ever having to translate a work that has any kind of nuance to it. Like if you're translating a novel between languages. I don't think machine translation is going to be able to do that kind of work for a very long time because I think that's a that that that is not a question of communication, translating something that has style to it.
 
Grey: Right. The answer is, I cannot summarize his position for us.
Unknown Speaker 17:50
Excuse me.
 
Brady 17:51 [chuckles]
I think I'm Derek for that cough. Yeah,
 
Grey: [laughing] Um, and, I kept- I kept mentioning this to him in the bar because he- he had- he had actually a letter to me, he had written this whole thing on his iPhone that it- that was like--
Grey 17:53
yeah, I will blame Derek for that cough. What I was just gonna say is I was reading a document a while ago, talking about The beginning points of machine language translation like what how do you begin to train these algorithms? And I think to give you a sense of how of how dry and utilitarian the translations may be, is that the starting point for this one algorithm that I was reading about was the European Union corpus of laws. Because for those of you who are aware in the European Union, I've got I should know this off the top my head, but I think it's there's something like 22 or 24 different official languages. And what that means is that any document that is issued in the European Union has to have legal copies in all of the other languages now, which is you can find these these statistics for how many human hours is employed in, in this endeavor, which is, which is quite a lot. For the record. I just want to say I'm totally okay with that, right. If you're going to designate something as an official language, you need to produce documents in that language. Otherwise, what's the point? Yeah, but basically, the result is that you end up having just This enormous treasure trove for computer linguistics of data of thousands of documents that have been translated into this 20 something different languages. And so it's it's a great training ground. And by training algorithms a little weird, you can actually sort of have them learn on their own. It's but the result means that like your translation style is going to sound probably as dry as a European Union. Legal memo is going to sound. So I don't I don't think that we're going to have translations of poetry that are anything but laughable for quite a long time. Well, if that's your if that's your brief response to that first
 
Brady 19:39 [giggling]
point, so
 
Grey: --this- this, uh, this, like, bullet pointed argument about all the ways in which I was wrong, and- and all the ways in which I should- I should reconsider my- my positions, and to- to be fair to Derek, I- I cannot, I think, possibly try to summarize his arguments without getting it just- just wrong or making him more infuriated because with eight hours, there's a lot of nuance,--
Unknown Speaker 19:41
I'll limit the number of Sean's points I share with
 
Brady 19:44 Hmm.
and I will point out I'm only briefly summarizing, I'm not I'm not pointing out his whole argument. Another point he made it was very good, though. You were saying you're an advocate of coding computer programming as something that would be more valuable to teach in schools. He rightly points out computer languages are change very quickly become outdated very quickly. You know what, what languages are we going to what computer languages? Are we going to teach in school? Are people going to come out fluent in some code that is redundant before they even reach the job market?
 
Grey: --that you can go into. We- we can suffice it to say that I- I was not- I was not moved by Derek. Uh, I have not changed my opinion, uh,-
Grey 20:16
Yeah, so I think it's interesting point actually discuss this with Derek a little bit tonight in any future video or any any future podcast that we talked about, I mean, computer programming languages in a very, very broad way. I think there are, there are lots of things if I if I was having a computer language course, that I would teach that would not be straight up computer languages. So for example, when I when I worked as a teacher, I taught a course in electronics, and that was a 100% hands on practical course no code at all. But what it was was the was kids had to Connect a bunch of sensors and buttons and switches to each other. And they had to make those connections using logic gates. So those are things like, if the heat sensor is active, and the light sensor is active, then make the buzzer sound. So so I think any kind of, of teaching of logic to me falls under this category of what a computer programming languages, just the very idea of how do you talk to computers. And so even though computer programmers in the audience, right, their head will explode when I put this in the same category. But I would be totally happy to have a lot done in say, spreadsheets. There's an enormous amount of stuff you can do with a spreadsheet that is if then else, right, if this number is this, then do that thing. That's what I mean by computer programming, just the idea of teaching, how to communicate with computer In a logical way, I just want to say that that's that's a very, very broad, very broad definition. But to specifically answer his question about the the language, I would just say that the language is in the field seem to turn over very slowly. There are languages that don't move very much. And okay. For example, if you're using and it's, it's 2014. And if you're using an iPhone, those iPhones are still programmed in, basically in in a variant of the language of C. Which God I mean, off the top of my head, I'm going to say C is at least 1970s, kind of old. So that's not I mean, sees not a pretty language I've programmed a little bit and see, sorry, see programmers, it just kind of ugly. Lisp is beautiful for those in the audience who are listening, and I do like Python. But anyway, you can pick languages that don't change very much but much more with computer languages than with say, human languages, the the internal concepts, the logical gates of if then else. And NAND, those things are universal and languages and the syntactic differences between programming languages are not as large as you might think they are. So
 
Brady: In any way? There was nothing he said that made a dent anywhere? No chink in your armor?
Brady 23:16
let me read you something showing, right, which I quite liked. Yeah. And this sort of touches nicely on something you covered a few seconds ago. And maybe this also is where we come to the interesting point where sort of the robot gray versus the human May, but this really appealed to me. Maybe it won't appeal to you. This is what Shawn Right. Yeah. The selling point for teaching language for me is, as you alluded to, in the podcast, the access point to culture, but I would include all human culture in that, more than anything else in our makeup, we are built to understand language. It is literally in our DNA more than physics, math, almost anything else. Language is what distinguishes us evolutionarily from the rest of the animals and as deeply To our cognitive ability,
 
Grey: [laughing] If- well, it's not- it's not- it's not chink in my armor, but- but there are a few- there are a few interesting, uh, interesting kind of things to- to bring up about that. I'm not summarizing Derek's argument, what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say a similar thing that came up on the Reddit and in some of the feedback that I got was comments about the benefits of learning languages. Cognitive benefits that are not necessarily the language themself, but things that you get from learning a second language. And I- I always want to be clear, I don't doubt that there are benefits to learning another language,--
Grey 24:02
the second part of that is undeniably true, that humans are I mean, especially little humans are just language absorbing machines that's clearly built straight into our DNA. That that's, that's something that kids do. But I, I feel like I'd have to hear that first bit of it again, but I just just because that's the thing that humans intrinsically are good at when they're young. I don't I don't see that as an art as a convincing argument for why we should teach it in this very formulaic way when they're older.
 
Brady 24:36 Yeah.
Well, let me say that he Sean also made the point that Derek made, which is that he thinks it's really important to start Yeah.
 
Grey: --uh, but my- my point was that I don't think the school system as it currently exists actually produces people who are able to speak another language. So you can talk to me as much as you want about the benefits of learning other languages and I am all on board with that, but the- the current school system just- it doesn't do that. So it's sort of- it's sort of irrelevant how awesome it is to speak a second language, when we're not coming out with kids who actually do speak other languages. So, I would say that that was part of the- part of the feedback that I got.
Unknown Speaker 24:44
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.
 
Brady: Yeah but- but, like, you teach people sport and physical education and they don't come out as athletes at the end, but the process of playing the game taught them things- not only did it have a health benefit, it taught them about teamwork, it taught them things- it improved their coordination it did lots of other things, even though they don't come out as a- a major league baseballer at the end. I mean,--
Brady 24:46
And maybe if we started young, we'd be less inclined to give it the flick later on. But something else he said, just because something may be poorly taught is not an excuse for it to not be taught. I mean, I think he's saying there that you're throwing the baby. Hit with the bathwater. Yeah. And if it's being taught poorly at school, don't ditch it. Just teach it better.
 
Grey: Yes,--
Unknown Speaker 25:05
Yeah, I think you mentioned this conversation with Derek because it did go on for forever. I'm wondering if this is a
 
Brady: --I- I know you realize this, but, you seem to say "I realize this" and then completely ignore it.
Brady 25:11
Sean is actually like, you know, Derek trying to sneakily get
 
Grey: Uh, I guess- I guess I just- my- my thought on this is that the- the- the things that I have seen about the benefits of learning another language are presupposing basic competence in that language, right? "When a person has basic competence in that language, here are the benefits that they also have." And so, uh, my- my position is just that I don't think most language courses, uh, have their students reach basic conversational competence to- to get those benefits. It's like a- it's like a threshold effect. Anyway, I just- I did want to mention that, but I also just, again, want to be clear because Derek will be really angry otherwise that that was- that was not the soul of his argument, and he also had a very different language experience than I did. It sounded like he actually had quite a- a- a successful schooling experience in general, which included (which by the way, language teachers, I think is a good idea) starting teaching French, I- I forget when he said, but in- in primary school, he was very young when they started doing French, which I think if you're going- if you're going to teach language, you might as well start when kids are very young, right? If we're going to do this, let's do it right, and- and start from the very beginning, but yeah, so he had a- he had a very different experience with me, and I am slightly exhausted, but unmoved from our conversation.
Grey 25:15
 
it to me get more points. Yeah, I would just say that this is this cannot be the topic for stakes. It'll be it'll go on forever. But the language thing is very much connected with my with my opinions of how school in general works in a modern world, which having seen it as a professional in that environment is is generally very poor. I don't think I think the whole education system has it has a whole lot of problems. And so I would leave it at that that's like there are very many things that I would change about the education system, and I just think languages, particularly ill suited for the sit at a desk kind of learning method. But there are many things They're just done terribly as well in that system. But obviously, we still we still send kids to school. So
Brady: You realize I've- you realize I've got Derek next, he's coming to me for three days now, and we're like, hanging out for ages. Am I- am I just gonna be bombarded with language stuff? Or, I--
 
Grey: You may be. You may be. I do have- I do have a personal a piece of advice for you,--
 
Brady: Yeah.
 
Grey: --and anyone else who sees Derek in the next couple of days. I had a- I have a major regret, which is that when I- I met Derek, we met in the, uh, Natural History Museum here in London, I- I gave Derek a hug, to say hello, right? Like a--
 
Brady: Yeah
 
Grey: --you know, "haven't seen you in a while" hug, and I really shouldn't have, because Derek was- was sick, but I thought "let me- let me express my great friendship to Derek" nice big hello hug,--
 
Brady: Yeah.
 
Grey: --and now I'm feeling terrible. I am feeling very sick. Derek gave me a disease from physical proximity, I'm absolutely sure,--
 
Brady: Oh no...
 
Grey: --he is now on his way to you, acting as a Typhoid Mary of sorts, I assume,--
 
Brady: [chuckles]
 
Grey: --so, you and the missus may be shortly experiencing symptoms of not feeling very well. So I do also apologize to listeners if my voice doesn't sound absolutely perfect, or if you hear me- if you hear the sound of, like, crinkly unwrapping, like I'm doing now,--
 
Brady: [chuckles]
 
Grey: --I have Halls, and a whole bunch of other medicines that I'm shoving into my face right now to try to sound a bit more normal, so I'm sorry, these sounds are terrible, but you're gonna have to listen to them for the moment.
 
Brady: We're going- we're sharing a hot tub with Derek so we're in for a world of pain.
 
Grey: [laughs]
 
Brady: We're going to, like- the- uh, like the spa- the hot spa, in- in Bath here.
 
Grey: Oh, that's no good. That's- you are definitely- disease vector Derek, that's what's gonna happen to you. Sorry.
 
Brady: Can I share an email with you I got?
 
Grey: Oh yes.
 
Brady: Um, this is about language,--
 
Grey: Uh-huh.
 
Brady: --it's actually funny, uh, there's a bit of a trend I've noticed since we've started the podcast,--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --particularly the one we did about email,--
 
Grey: Uh-huh.
 
Brady: --because I've--
 
Grey: Are you getting more emails?
 
Brady: Yes, but it's really funny because I'm getting like, short emails like you recommended, but because--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --because I think we've made our positions clear that you are pretty ruthless with email--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --in terms of not reading it, and deleting it,--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --and I was a bit more of a softy, and I say that I sometimes read emails in case--
 
Grey: Yes, mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --there's a gem in there I'm getting all these emails that are kind of, almost directed at you,--
 
Grey: [laughs]
 
Brady: --or- or they are are directed at both of us and they're saying "I know grey won't read my emails, but I--"
 
Grey: [laughs]
 
Brady: "--I know there's a chance you will, Brady, so can you tell Grey this?" Or, you know, "can you make my argument for me?" so- so anyway,--
 
Grey: This is great, this is perfect!
 
Brady: [giggles]
 
Grey: I like- I like this system quite a lot. This way, you can filter out the interesting things, so in- uh, I- I think this should be a policy, right?
 
Brady: [chuckles]
 
Grey: For- for any and all feedback, in the email form, email Brady,--
 
Brady: [chuckles]
 
Grey: --and he will read your message. I think this is great, I really like this. You are basically now, a- a human, Bayesian email filter for me, for the feedback. So, go ahead, tell me, what is the interesting thing that made it through?
 
Brady: I, uh,--
 
Grey: [chuckles]
 
Brady: --I haven't thought this through. [chuckles] It, uh, if anyone decides that they're going to do that, I don't know, I mean, maybe I've- no, don't email me.
 
Grey: You know, you're still gonna read 'em. [chuckles]
 
Brady: Anyway, I did get this email from a chap named Sean... I don't know if I should say his surname, 'cause he might like it being read out, but I'm always really reluctant to use people surnames, um, publicly.
 
Grey: Uh, yeah, I'd- I'd say the general policy let's stick with- with first names, right? That's what I would--
 
Brady: Sean, you know who you are, you wrote a long email. It was very good, you made a lot of good points. Some I agree with, some I have no opinion on--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --uh, but some I didn't make in our discussion.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: I mean, I- like most things in life, I have no really firm position on this whole language-in-school debate. But, I tried to put the other side because... you put- you put your side so strongly, and he made some really good points, and I'd like to share a couple of them with you. One of the points he made, you talked about in the last podcast, how you think, sort of, machine translation is moving along so quickly,--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm?
 
Brady: --that that's one of the reasons speaking other languages will become sort of, you know, a less important skill--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --as time goes by.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: He's- he politely but strongly disagreed with that. And he seems- it seems to be an area he knows quite a lot about.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: And he- he thinks were fifty, if not a hundred years away from computerized language translation being really top notch, like reaching a level that, um, is acceptable for, you know, strong purposes.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: I'll send- I'll send you the email,- and you can decide if you want to read it.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: He made a strong case for it.
 
Grey: Yeah.
 
Brady: So I just want to throw that in the mix. I don't- I don't know if he's right or not,--
 
Grey: I- I- my- my- my, uh, my thought on that just- just very briefly is, when I talked about the- the language translation, we- we discussed it a little bit last time, but my main thought about that is the scenario of- of utility, right? It is a good enough for most people traveling in a foreign country to communicate with the people around them. And, I think that that is the language scenario for most people. I- I- I imagine, especially, especially if you are ever having to, uh, translate a- a work that has any kind of nuance to it, like if you're translating a novel between languages, I don't- I don't think machine translation is going to be able to do that kind of work for a very long time, because I think that's a- that- that- that is not a question of- of communication, uh, translating something that has style to it. [clears throat] Excuse me. Um, I think--
 
Brady: We'll blame Derek for that cough.
 
Grey: Yeah, yeah, I will blame Derek for that cough. What I was just gonna say is- is, uh, I was reading a document a while ago, talking about, uh, the beginning points of- of machine language translation, like, what- "how do you begin to train these algorithms?", and I think to give you a sense of how- of how dry and utilitarian the translations may be, is that the- the starting point for this one algorithm that I was reading about was the European Union Corpus of Laws. Because, uh, for- for those of- of you who are aware, in the European Union (oh god, I should know this off the top my head), but I think it's there's something like twenty-two or twenty-four different official languages,--
 
Brady: Hmm.
 
Grey: --and what that means is that any document that is issued in the European Union has to have legal copies in all of the other languages.
 
Brady: Nice.
 
Grey: Which is, you can find these- these statistics for how many human hours is employed in--
 
Brady: [chuckles]
 
Grey: --uh, in this endeavor, which is- which is quite a lot. For the record, I just want to say I'm totally okay with that, right? If you're going to designate something as an official language, you need to produce documents in that language, otherwise, what's the point?
 
Brady: Yeah.
 
Grey: But basically, the result is that you end up having just this enormous treasure trove for computer linguistics of data of thousands of documents that have been translated into this twenty-something different languages. And so it's- it's a great training ground. And by- by training I mean, algorithms a little weird, you can actually sort of have them learn on their own. It's- but, the- the result means that, like, your translation style is going to sound probably as dry as a European Union legal memo is going to sound. Uh, so I don't- I don't think that we're going to have translations of poetry that are anything but laughable for quite a long time.
 
Brady: Well, if that's your- if that's your brief response to that first of Sean's points,--
 
Grey: Oh god... [laughing]
 
Brady: --I'll, uh, I'll- [laughing] I'll limit the number of Sean's points I share with you.
 
Grey: Oh, I'm so sorry.
 
Brady: And I will point out, I'm only briefly summarizing, I'm not- I'm not pointing out his whole argument.
 
Grey: Yes, yes.
 
Brady: Another point he made it was very good though, um, you were saying you're an advocate of coding, computer programming--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --as something that would be more valuable to teach in schools.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: He rightly points out, computer languages are- change very quickly become outdated very quickly.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: Uh, you know, what- what languages are we going to- what computer languages are we going to teach in school? Are people going to come out fluent in some code that is redundant before they even reach the job market?
 
Grey: Yeah, so this is- I- I think- it's an interesting point, I actually, uh, discussed this with Derek a- a little bit, uh, tonight. In any future video or any- any, uh, future podcast that we talk about, I mean computer programming languages in a very very broad way. I- I think there are- there are lots of things if I- if I was having a- a computer language course, that I- that I would teach that would not be straight up computer languages. So, um, for example, when I- when I, uh, worked as a teacher, I taught a course in electronics. And, that was a- a one-hundred-percent hands-on practical course, no code at all. Uh, but what it was, was the- was kids had to connect a bunch of- of sensors and buttons and switches to each other. And they had to make those connections using, um, logic gates. So those are things like "if the heat sensor is active, and the light sensor is active, then make the buzzer sound". Um, so- so I think any kind of- of teaching of logic, to me falls under this category of "what a computer programming language is". Just the very idea of "how do you talk to computers?". And so, even though computer programmers in the audience, right? Their- their head will explode when I put this in the same category, but I would be totally happy to have a lot done in say, spreadsheets. There's an enormous amount of stuff you can do with a spreadsheet that is "if, then, else", right? "If this number is this, then do that thing." That's what I mean by computer programming, just the idea of teaching, "how to communicate with computers in a- in a logical way". I just want to say that that's- that's a very- very broad, um, a very broad, uh- uh, definition. But to specifically answer his question about the- the language, I- I would just say that the languages in the field seem to turn over very slowly. The- there are languages that don't move very much, and--
 
Brady: Okay.
 
Grey: For example, uh, you know, if you're using- and it's- it's 2014, and if you're using an iPhone, those iPhones are still programmed in, basically in- in a variant of the language of C, which... [sighs] oh god, I mean, off the top of my head, I'm going to say C is at least, um, 1970s, kind of old. Uh, so that's not- I mean, C is not a pretty language, I've taught- I've programmed a little bit in C. Sorry, C programmers, it--
 
Brady: [exhales in amusement]
 
Grey: --it is just kind of ugly. Lisp is beautiful, for those in the audience who are listening, and I do like Python. But anyway, um, you can pick languages that don't change very much, but- uh- much more with computer languages than with say, human languages, the- the internal concepts, the- the logical gates of "if, then, else, and, nand", those things are universal in languages and the- the syntactic differences between programming languages are not as large as you might think they are. So, um--
 
Brady: Let me read you something Sean wrote, which I quite liked.
 
Grey: Yeah- yeah.
 
Brady. And this sort of touches nicely on something you covered a few seconds ago, um--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm?
 
Brady: --and maybe this also is where we come to the interesting point where, sort of, the robot Grey versus the human me, but this really appealed to me, maybe it won't appeal to you.
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: This is what Sean wrote:
 
Grey: Yeah.
 
Brady: "The selling point for teaching language for me is, as you alluded to in the podcast, the access point to culture, but I would include all human culture in that. More than anything else in our makeup, we are built to understand language. It is literally in our DNA more than physics, math, almost anything else. Language is what distinguishes us evolutionarily from the rest of the animals and is deeply linked to our cognitive ability.
 
Grey: The second part of that is undeniably true, that humans are- I mean especially little humans- are just language absorbing machines. That's clearly built straight into our DNA. That- that's- that's something that kids do. But I- I- I feel like I- I'd have to hear that first bit of it again, but I- I- I just- just because that's the thing that humans intrinsically are good at when they're young. I don't- I don't see that as an ar- as a convincing argument for why we should teach it in this very formulaic way when they're older. Right?
 
Brady: Well, let me say that- that he- Sean also made the point that Derek made,--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm.
 
Brady: --which is that he thinks it's really important to start young. Um,--
 
Grey: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.
 
Brady: Yeah, uh, and maybe if we started young, we'd be less inclined to give it the flick later on. But something else he said: "just because something may be poorly taught is not an excuse for it to not be taught". I mean, I think he's saying there that you're throwing the- the baby out with the bathwater,--
 
Grey: Yeah.
 
Brady: --and if it's being taught poorly at school, don't ditch it, just teach it better.
 
Grey: Yeah, I- I- [laughing] I- I keep mentioning this conversation with Derek because it did go on for forever, um--
 
Brady: I'm wondering if this is it,--
 
Grey: [laughing]
 
Brady: --I wonder if Sean is actually like, you know, Derek trying to sneakily get- get to--
 
Grey: [laughing] Yeah, maybe.
 
Brady: --alias.
 
Grey: Get more face time with his points? Yeah.
 
Brady: Yeah.
 
Grey: Um, I- I would- I would just say that- that, uh, [sigh] this- this- this cannot be the topic for today, 'cause it'll be- it'll go on forever, but--
 
Brady: Mm-hmm.
 
Grey: --the language thing is very much connected with my with my opinions of how school in general works in a modern world, which having seen it as a professional in that environment is is generally very poor. I don't think I think the whole education system has it has a whole lot of problems. And so I would leave it at that that's like there are very many things that I would change about the education system, and I just think languages, particularly ill suited for the sit at a desk kind of learning method. But there are many things They're just done terribly as well in that system. But obviously, we still we still send kids to school. So
 
Brady 26:06
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