H.I. No. 2: Copyright Not Intended: Difference between revisions
transcript up to 48:38
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'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -and so they'll just delay and delay until they can see the traffic has dropped off, and, you know, then- then they'll replace it if you're lucky. Um, but yeah news- newspapers are by far the worst, and my- my guess- here- here's my guess about this: Is that- I think they're under, just tremendous financial constraints because of changing technology,-
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'''Grey:''' Mm.
'''Brady:''' -of all the pictures from it. It's like,
'''Grey:''' [chuckles] Okay, so, while- while we've been complaining about all- all of these- these things, I will-
'''Brady:''' [chuckles] We are a couple of grumpy old men
'''Grey:''' Right, right.
'''Brady:''' -now we should probably stop.
'''Grey:''' Right, now we are. If anyone has still survived listening through-
'''Brady:''' [giggles]
'''Grey:''' -the complaints of YouTubers, right? First world YouTuber problems-
'''Brady:''' Heh-heh, yeah.
'''Grey:''' -that are copyright issues.
'''Brady:''' Yeah, exactly.
'''Grey:''' I would just go- I would go back to um, one- one of the little notes that I wanted to make, is, um, the advantage of allowing copyright to expire. And, you know you talked about "why should people be able to build on on George Lucas's stuff?"
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' You know, as an example. And, I think, what- some examples of- of this which is very interesting of like, you can retell stories in much more interesting ways. And, I have- I have two examples that I really like.
'''Brady:''' Okay.
'''Grey:''' The first one- this might be slightly embarrassing, but I'm going to admit it anyway, is the, I think it's 1996 movie called ''Clueless'',-
'''Brady:''' Yeah yeah, great movie.
'''Grey:''' -starring Alicia Silverstone.
'''Brady:''' Yeah, I love that film.
'''Grey:''' Um, which is one of those movies when I first saw it, I- you know, I thought this was just the dumbest movie ever made, and for anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend that you do watch it, but it is- on the surface, it is basically a movie about the dumbest California Valley girls you've ever seen.
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' Uh, and- and the exploits of their life. Um, however, later on I came to find out that the- that clueless is a remake of Jane Austen's ''Emma'', right? That it- it is the exact plot of ''Emma'', just moved to this different setting, and once you know that, I think the movie ''Clueless'' becomes kind of brilliant. Um, I think it's-
'''Brady:''' That's so snobby though, isn't it? That's like, "oh, I- I- I wasn't willing to admit I liked this film, until I realized was based on something old,"
'''Grey:''' Well,-
'''Brady:''' And famous.
'''Grey:''' Yes, I- I- I will totally admit that- that- that does sound terrible.
'''Brady:''' 'Cause I've often heard it said anyway that sort of Jane Austen's stuff was considered reasonably not that highbrow at its time as well, so-
'''Grey:''' Yeah, I've- I've- I've heard that kind of stuff, um,-
'''Brady:''' I don't know if that's-
'''Grey:''' I've heard some-
'''Brady:''' -one of these fallacies...
'''Grey:''' Yeah, I- I don't- I don't know either but, um, I- I've heard similar things, and- and of course, you know, thing- things gain respect through time,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah, yeah.
'''Grey:''' you know, just because it's old, it's- it's sort of awesome. Um,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' Heh-heh, don't get me started on- on Shakespeare. Um but,- so I- but,- so this is an example where I think clueless is the kind of movie that could be made, right, because the copyright on Emma had expired.
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' And, you can do interesting things with that story by moving it to a different setting. and I think that there there is cultural value in being able to do new things with iconic characters, right? That I think at a certain point, very successful films and very successful books, they become part of the culture, and- and that is also why I'm kind of very much for some eventual limit on copyright. Uh, that- so- that- so that more can be done with these things in the future. Um, and my- a second example that I have which, I only recently discovered and then I had one of these, uh, binge watching sessions is the BBC's remake of ''Sherlock'' the Sherlock Holmes series,-
'''Brady:''' Oh, how good are they?
'''Grey:''' Have you- have you seen them?
'''Brady:''' Oh they- yeah, they're awesome.
'''Grey:''' So I think actually, as we are talking, the season 3 finale is airing on the BBC right now, which I'm looking forward to.
'''Brady:''' Yeah, yeah.
'''Grey:''' But I basically only discovered these about a month ago,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -and I watched the first one, and as- and I was like, I- I can't stop watching now, right? I have to keep watching this. Um, and I- and I've just binge watched the first two and a half seasons available at that point, and uh, it was great, and I think that this is another example of like,- Sherlock Holmes is so much more than the original author ever intended him to be, right? He's- like he is such a part art of the- of like the Anglosphere culture at this point,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' Um, that I- I think that it is fair enough to say that- that his character belongs in the public domain and other people can do things with this kind of story, um-
'''Brady:''' I mean Sherlock might not be the best example because I know there's lots of clever, nuanced nods to the Conan Doyle books, but, is this not just a case- again and I know Sherlock's not the best example but I'll- I'll run with it, is this not a case of someone, you know, some clever story tellers and good actors and good directors making a brilliant piece of film,-
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' -something that's compelling, but then just appropriating a famous name and brand that has worked its way into culture to help sell their product, I mean, you could- you could make a bunch of rip-roaring detective films just like that about, you know, a guy and his assistant,-
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' -that would- that would on the surface be just as good, but less people would watch it because it hasn't got an iconic name like Sherlock and things like that, so, in some ways I see what you're saying, they've built- you're building on things, and you're building on things in culture,-
'''Grey:''' Mm-hmm.
'''Brady:''' -but in other ways I think they're just being- they're being a bit lazy. They're making something good, but then they're appealing to our culture which doesn't like anything unless it's already famous, and stamping that on it in much the same way, when you make a science documentary on the BBC, no matter what the topic is you're like "well we can't do this unless it's someone who's already famous presenting it" they're just stamping fame on things because our culture is so obsessed with fame.
'''Grey:''' [sighs sharply] Ach, I- I think- I think that's- that's getting off into a different argument slightly about-
'''Brady:''' [giggles]
'''Grey:''' -about fame, right?
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' and- and also I think the, um, you know, there's some great- there's some great charts about the number of sequels, right? That have been made in movies recently, and- and this- this similar kind of idea, right? That people want to buy what they already know.
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' And, my- my opinion on the bad sequels thing is like, I don't care how many bad sequels are made, I only care about the good sequels, because-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -I don't have to watch the bad sequels.
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' Um, and, my opinion is that, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff that's made that people watch it because it's Sherlock Holmes, and now I have another great Sherlock Holmes example,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -which is the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes movie,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -right? Which I watched, only because it was a Sherlock Holmes movie.
'''Brady:''' Yeah, I started to watch it for that reason and I had to stop after about,-
'''Grey:''' Yeah.
'''Brady:''' -twenty minutes, but yeah.
'''Grey:''' There's no reason I would have watched that movie if it was not a Sherlock Holmes movie. And it's like I- I found it moderately enjoyable, but they would have not gotten my money if it was not for a Sherlock Holmes name on it, right?
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' Because I've read the Sherlock Holmes stories, like- and I'm interested in this, and so I wanted to see that interpretation, which, I was like "ah, it's okay" but, you know, I didn't watch the second one. Um,-
'''Brady:''' Yeah.
'''Grey:''' -but, to me the- the BBC Sherlock is- is like the shining example of what you can do and I think that those- those stories are great. They're made better because it's Sherlock Holmes, because you can see like what changes have they made to these characters, or what have they kept the same,-
'''Brady:''' Hmm.
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'''Grey:''' -you know what's different now that they've moved it into a modern setting
'''Brady:''' that's a fair point
'''Grey:''' I think it gains value from contrasts with the originals
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' that it wouldn't have if it was a standalone piece
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' and so that's why I think it's it's great that people can do this and although it will it would never happen I would love it if there was um, you know, if I say the copyright limit was 60 years that when I was older I could watch somebody redo the original Star Wars movies III think that like there is room for them to be redone in an awesome way but with current copyright lasting forever, that will never happen, you know, and and that that will never be able to occur
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' , so we just have to put up with how George Lucas himself made his new films yeah and again that this is why George Lucas is always like the easy one to pick on right because he made new Star Wars movies and they have been generally they have been generally panned and here's the thing right
'''Brady:''' like generally pay that was a very yeah diplomatic statement
'''Grey:''' but but here's the things like I I don't hold any grudges against him and and here's one of the other things with going back to like what allows us to make our living. The control over the distribution this Star Wars comes up for a very particular reason in copyright debates, and it's- it's partly because the power of the control of the distribution is what has allowed George Lucas to basically prevent showings of the original Star Wars movies as they first aired.
'''Brady:''' Yes
'''Grey:''' right and this this again is like could not be a more first world kind of problem.
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' but if you are a person who kind of cares about the cultural history of the world you know if you're looking at movies for example, Star Wars is undoubtedly a moment in that cultural history
'''Brady:'''yeah
'''Grey:''' but you cannot get the original versions of those Star Wars
'''Brady:''' very naughty it's very naughty of amuse enough
'''Grey:''' yeah and I think that's where a lot of the resentment comes from is people saying you know nobody begrudges making those new movies is like oh god you know or I think nobody writes
'''Brady:''' a grudge a little bit
'''Grey:''' I I would say I hold no I hold no ill will in my heart for the making of those movies like he this is the same thing they just they in my mind just fall into the category of the bad things I don't have to watch the bad things I saw them once I will never see them again but what
'''Brady:''' I know I've been watching but it but if you see them once I'm sorry I know this isn't about Star Wars I've been watching the originals again lately because they're on telly and I love them so I watched them and things that happen in the originals now kept giving me flashbacks to those subsequent prequels and it was tainting the originals for me because I was thinking uh
'''Grey:''' they just they just don't exist um okay anyway go on yeah so I was just also not related but one of my podcasting heroes a guy called John siracusa who I adore
'''Brady:''' hm
'''Grey:''' he is a huge Star Wars nerd and he has kids and what I love is that he has simply deny the existence of the original three movies within his household
'''Brady:''' giggles so how fun were they well
'''Grey:''' he knows that they will but his strategy apparently is to have his kids exist long enough without ever having seen them that they will be able to distinguish between the good originals and the terrible prequels because I ran across this in my students enough work where kids who saw them in similar time frames we're not necessarily able to distinguish ones from the other which is horrifying to me
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' um but anyway we're getting derailed so what I would say is is like that that is one of the problems is that this power of the control of distribution in this one particular case has has led to some cultural problems
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' and and that's that is that is the reason why I picked George Lucas as an example in my video is because this is such a fundamental problem it's like, if there were limited copyright there would be hope of the original format of the movies entering back into- into the world and this is one of the reasons why Congress has extended copyright protections is because their argument is, it gives the creators encouragement to preserve their original works for longer and there's some interesting data that says that's not actually the case that what happens is the original works just get lost over longer periods of time, but in this particular case with George Lucas it's also very obvious that the original work gets distorted and you know it is increasingly hard to try and find as it aired in 1977 versions of the original movie. I, personally, have never seen this thing but I have heard that on the Internet, you might be able to find somewhere a thing called "Star Wars despecialized editions", where superfans have taken the current Star Wars movies and tried to make them as close as possible to the original cinematic releases as they happen again I would not know of where to acquire such a thing because it would obviously be copyright infringement
'''Brady:''' um and it would be frowned upon that as creators esos
'''Grey:''' as I created myself I could never condone such an action for such an incredibly important historical thing that I personally love you know so I will I will take the high road here, but I'm just like throwing it out there that there exists this thing called the Star Wars despecialized edition
'''Brady:''' I'll tell you something else yeah I mean obviously I'm imagining you've seen people versus George Lucas the film
'''Grey:''' I actually have not
'''Brady:''' well I highly highly recommend that
'''Grey:''' it's on my list as I'm not so
'''Brady:''' considerduring what we just discussed I can't recommend that highly enough but also for people out there who are probably like grey and I and spend way too much time reading Wikipedia articles reading it the story of the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assassinated it comes to you know copyright and ownership of material and things like that's a really interesting story well I'm sure we won't go into it now but if if I after this podcast people wouldn't go and read something that's a good read as well
'''Grey:''' yeah
'''Brady:''' let me ask you a final question because obviously we've been going for over here if you were going to make another copyright video then or remake your original one of course you would preserve the original for the archives but
'''Grey:''' I don't know I would
'''Brady:''' differently is there anything you'd say differently or do you do you think you pretty much have the same position
'''Grey:''' I- I was thinking about that earlier today and I don't know that the argument that I want to be made can be made within the context of the of the kinds of videos I put on YouTube. A coherent argument for limited copyright is hard to make, because I- I think that it is or it is a real gray area of law. It requires a large amount of time and it's also a topic that there is no clearly correct answer um and as a- as a little example I just want to throw into to put that point there's a thought process that I learned what I was doing physics back at University, and it's this question of in certain situations take the problem to infinity and take the problem to zero and so say you know what would a world be like if we had infinite copyright, if Congress just said "oh the heck with these extensions we're just literally going to make it forever"
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' you know or we have a world where Congress says you know no copyright at all zero and when I think of those two worlds if I had to pick I pick the world with the infinite copyright
'''Brady:''' right
'''Grey:''' I think there would be there would be problems with that but I think that is preferable to a world with zero copyright protection and so that that that is kind of one of the ways that gets me to this I am for limited copyright protection I am NOT for no copyright protection, um, but I'll put a link in the blog post for this episode, but there is a very very interesting TED talk by a woman talking about the fashion industry and how in the United States at least fashion designs do not have copyright protection at all, so, the fashion industry is a world where there is ZERO copyright
'''Brady:''' hmm
'''Grey:''' and she makes a very convincing argument that this is nothing but beneficial to the fashion world, because it encourages tremendous turnover of styles right that if one company comes out with a particular style of dress there's a delay in time before other companies can come out with it too simply because of ramping up manufacturing capabilities
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' but it means that everybody has to keep generating new things much more quickly, and this is- this leads into my like well it's hard to have a definitive opinion, because I am convinced that the fashion industry is better off without having copyright protection. And I think there's some very specific reasons why that's the case,-
'''Brady:''' yeah
'''Grey:''' but I don't- I don't think that same argument applies in other creative fields, so it's a- it's a very complicated- very complicated issue.
'''Brady:''' I think, if nothing else we have shown that it is complicated.
'''Grey:''' [chuckles] Yes.
'''Brady:''' And, as always, it has been a pleasure.
'''Grey:''' All right, I will,-
'''Brady:''' Catch you next time?
'''Grey:''' Yeah, catch you next time, all right, thanks.
'''Brady:''' All right, we got- we got a few things to discuss for next time all ready; I'm making some notes.
'''Grey:''' Oh good.
'''Brady: It was good talking to you mate, catch you later.
'''Grey:''' Good, all right, take care man, bye.
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